Welcome back to
"the Liberty Insider."
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This is Lincoln steed
again with guest Tina Ramirez.
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Before the break, Tina,
we were talking about Turkey,
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a pivotal country from history.
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But the present
they're certainly,
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where they're undergoing
constitutional reexamination,
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that's probably a
good way to put up.
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What else can you
tell us about Turkey?
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I know you've traveled
there a number of times
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and your analysis
is pretty much spot on?
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What's happening?
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Yeah, I had mentioned
before in another episode
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that I had visited
Syria, and I had visited Syria
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a few years ago with the bishop
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from the eastern United States.
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And we had traveled.
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We've driven across into Turkey.
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And we've gone to a place
called Mor Gabriel Monastery,
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which gets about
80,000 visitors a year.
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So it's a-- I
mean it was the sea
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of the Syriac church
for a number of years.
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And it dates back to 300s.
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But interestingly
enough the monastery
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has been involved
in litigation battle
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with the Turkish government
because a local Kurdish leader,
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a local Muslim Kurdish
leader, says that the church,
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that the monastery was
built on the top of mosque.
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And so--
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It's usually the
other way around, isn't it?
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Yeah, but you can imagine
having been built in the three--
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Three, that's
obviously. Three hundreds.
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It's a few hundred
year period difference
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between the expansion of Islam.
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Predates, not just the
expansion the establishment.
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Yeah, the establishment, right.
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But unfortunately
this is really indicative
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of the problems that
we have mentioned before
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that are going on throughout
Turkey of property rights,
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confiscation of
property, registration problems.
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The problems with
the training of clergy,
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the training of
children in their
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native religious
language like Aramaic.
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And so the Mor Gabriel Monastery
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is really someone-- an instance
that you don't hear about
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in all of the
problems in Turkey,
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but it's really
emblematic of all of them.
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And so you hear
about the Halki Seminary.
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You hear about
the Armenian genocide
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and the Armenian
problems not being recognized.
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You hear about the tiny
remnant of the Jewish community
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that you have left in Istanbul.
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But you don't
hear about the Syriacs.
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And the Syriacs are
only about 4,000 people.
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And so the fact
that the Syriac church
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of 4,000 people is
having its land confiscated
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by the government is absurd.
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And it shouldn't be
and even national community
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should recognize this.
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As we discussed, again
if this group is taking
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such easy plucking
and that they disappear
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or cease to exist
as an organized group,
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then it will be the
next minority, weren't it?
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It's hardly likely with
the dynamic distilled there.
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What affects one
affects the others.
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And as we
mentioned the Syriac church
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is not recognized
minority in Lausanne convention,
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so they don't have any rights.
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So the Jewish community,
the Armenians, the Greeks
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supposedly have rights
but in reality they don't.
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The Syriacs and the
other religious minorities
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that are not listed in Lausanne
convention don't have any.
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So it's really fascinating
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that when Chancellor
Angela Merkel met with Erdogan
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a couple of months,
she spent about 45 minutes
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just focused on the Mor Gabriel
monastery and this problem.
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So it's significant enough
that the German chancellor
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spend a large percent of
her time talking about it.
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Now apart from
just general altruism,
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why would she
brought it up? What would?
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Well, she has a number
Syriac living in Germany
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I believe, but I think
she also generally cares about
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religious freedom and recognizes
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that if Turkey is
going to advance as a leader,
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a democratic leader, in
the free world that it really
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needs to enter bridges
divide that we talked about.
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That it needs to take religious
minoritiesand their rights
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seriously, especially at this
time that they're undergoing
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as constitutional
change and process.
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So when she spoke
with the prime minister
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and there were a number of
minority communities present
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in the meeting
including the bishop
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from the Mor Gabriel
monastery, they talked about
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a couple of major
cases involving the monastery
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and the
confiscation of their property.
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There's two major cases.
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One is already at the
European Court of Human Rights.
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It's already been appealed
and so it's sitting there.
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And it relates to the forestry
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and the land
that was confiscated
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by the forestry
ministry and the government.
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But there is also
another case that many people
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don't know about and
that's the case involving
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the treasury and
whether the property
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that the monastery
has will be confiscated
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by the treasury department,
and as it's very complicated--
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So their problems are
many that is not simple,
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not a way to
mention. Yeah, it's not.
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And they have three more cases
that are going to the process.
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And they're appealing
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to the highest
court right now in Turkey.
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And then it's
likely that those cases
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will also go to the
European Court of Human Rights
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if the government
doesn't deal with it.
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The government though,
Erdogan could intercede
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right now and simply say
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that the treasury
department is wrong.
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That it misconstrued the problem
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and that the
monastery has been there for,
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you know, so
many years and that--
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Then we're asked
the leading question.
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Is this something the
government arbitrarily
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and without much
pretext or prefers
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start it on or is there--
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What is the government interest?
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No, is there a sentiment in
the population? Because if--
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But what's interesting is that--
You know, he could do that,
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but when he do
that if it would hurt
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his bonafides within
the Islamic majority.
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No, the interesting thing
is all of these comes down
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to a local Kurdish leader that
I had mentioned a minute ago.
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So it's just
simple, just localize it.
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It's a local leader
that is, I think friends
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of the prime minister
that wants their property.
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It's great
property and they want it.
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And so it's
actually pretty insidious.
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But the public,
interestingly enough,
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when there is, I
believe it was CNN Turk report
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on this before I was in Turkey
that said, what's big deal?
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Why is the government
going after a community
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of 4,000 people to take
their ancient monastery,
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the sea of the church?
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I mean why, what is the
reason behind this. And Turks--
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Maybe it's a simple apart from
government graft and cronyism.
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It is just grows
insensitivity to--
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Oh, I don't. I
think it's a local leader
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that wants-- Who don't care.
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That has a bone to
pick with the monastery
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and wants the land and
because of that they embroiled
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all the national
politics into a controversy.
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It doesn't even need to be one.
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But most of the Turkish
people based on the news,
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the interview that
was done on the CNN Turk,
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I'm pretty sure that was
the radio, the TV station.
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They asked, you
know, they're 4,000 people.
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They're not a threat.
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So why are-- why don't
you just give them their land?
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Why do you, why are you
creating this false conflict?
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And I think that's
what Merkel asked as well
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probably in that
meeting, although I am not sure
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what happened there.
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But I think that it is
a question that many Turks
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are not against the monastery.
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They visited in droves.
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Like I said 80,000 people
visit the monastery every year.
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And those
aren't just Christians.
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Those are mostly
Muslims and Turks and people
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from all over the
world that wants to see
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this beautiful
monastery and what they've done.
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And they-- the
monastery does it off for free.
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They don't
charge anybody to come.
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They have, I mean
they're the kindest,
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most hospitable
people that you'll ever meet.
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And it's a beautiful place that
everybody should go and visit.
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Well, let's hope that they will.
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Yeah, I mean really--
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As you're telling this story,
there's an incredible tale
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of grouse
prejudice and insensitivity
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towards a very
small religious minority.
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But what I was trying
to think this seems to have
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these particular things within
political cronyism and so on.
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But very often around
the world through the ages,
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not just in the modern
era, one church or one faith
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will purposely put their
temple or religious edifice
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on the place where a
competing religion was.
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It isn't by chance.
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It's actually a
sign to show dominance.
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Even when I was a kid
I could remember stories
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that at time they
were explained differently,
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but now I know what
was really going on.
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You would often hear
that the missionaries
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would go into the south pacific
and they'll be forced to build
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their church on
the spirit ground
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or the burial
ground of the locals.
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I don't think that
happened by chance.
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They chose that
because you were putting down
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the local Gods by
having your church there.
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In Jerusalem, the
flash point of everything
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between majorreligions.
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You know, the dome of the rocks
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sits on an ancient
Christian cathedral.
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Oh, not cathedral,
Christian house of worship.
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In Turkey, the--
what's the big mosque?
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Hagia Sophia Hagia
Sophia, yeah, Hagia Sophia
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that was the cathedral.
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That was a Christian cathedral.
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And I have traveled
through Spain and I have seen
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the same thing because
there was the Muslim conquest
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and then they re-conquest
to say you have the alternating
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aspect of some of
these houses religion.
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And all of us Muslim,
Christian, or whatever,
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we're all stuck
with what it is now.
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But people should recognize
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that some of these complications
were caused by this very
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conscience dynamic
through the ages to assert
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my religion is
higher than yours.
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I will show it,
show the dominance.
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I will put my church on
top of yours or destroy yours,
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some has converted, some has
destroyed and replace with mine.
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Right. And so really now
what's happening in Turkey
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is that they're having
this national dialog about
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the constitution and
what they need to get
00:09:25.12\00:09:27.12
to is what will
the role of religion
00:09:27.15\00:09:28.81
be in a future of their country?
00:09:28.84\00:09:30.09
So it's very important.
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They can have
an Islamic country.
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I mean there're
many different models.
00:09:32.95\00:09:34.08
It's their right. I mean.
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If there are
many different models
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for
constitutions around the world.
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And how they, I mean
there're the Islamic governments
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that have Islam as
the state religion.
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There're some that don't.
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There're some that recognize--
As long as they allow
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the religions to practice, some
people to change their faith.
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Yeah, and I think the big
question for Turkey right now
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is will they have that
dialog within the society?
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And that's the
dialog and discussion
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they need to have because-- it
doesn't make sense why religious
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communities like the
Syriacs, like the Armenians,
00:09:58.08\00:10:00.72
like the Alawis which are
20% of population in Turkey
00:10:00.75\00:10:04.18
are not allowed to
exist as equal citizens
00:10:04.21\00:10:07.84
in the future of this country.
00:10:07.87\00:10:09.38
And so if they're going
to deal with the presidency
00:10:09.41\00:10:11.11
and whether they're
afraid that the presidency
00:10:11.14\00:10:13.22
might be a presidency for
life in Islamic government,
00:10:13.25\00:10:15.80
then they can certainly
deal with this idea of the role
00:10:15.83\00:10:18.27
of religion in society
and the rights of minorities
00:10:18.30\00:10:21.73
and large
minorities like the Alawis.
00:10:21.76\00:10:24.48
So I think that it
will be interesting
00:10:24.51\00:10:27.09
to see how Turkey turns out.
00:10:27.12\00:10:31.59
In the west, there's been
certain ambivalence to Turkey.
00:10:31.62\00:10:34.87
I know with my
Australian origins,
00:10:34.90\00:10:36.82
my country remembers
Turkey, the Gallipoli campaign
00:10:36.85\00:10:40.16
and the battle
there on the Dardanelles.
00:10:40.19\00:10:43.55
Many Australians lost their
lives in fighting the Turks.
00:10:43.58\00:10:46.35
They were beaten off
by the Turks by the way.
00:10:46.38\00:10:48.86
As recently as the
Cuban missile crisis,
00:10:48.89\00:10:52.97
the issue of arms in
Turkey was quite a dispute.
00:10:53.00\00:10:56.82
Kemal Ataturk westernized
Turkey and Islamic country
00:10:56.85\00:11:01.22
became a western leaning country
and part of a western alliance.
00:11:01.25\00:11:05.65
But today we are
seeing the worldwide battle
00:11:05.68\00:11:09.55
between religious
sensibilities and poltical
00:11:09.58\00:11:13.54
moderation we fought out.
00:11:13.57\00:11:16.09
It's very important
that in this country
00:11:16.12\00:11:17.88
as in all other countries
00:11:17.91\00:11:19.23
religious
freedom is transcended.
00:11:19.26\00:11:22.13
That political
identity, of course
00:11:22.16\00:11:24.27
will be unique to that country.
00:11:24.30\00:11:26.02
But the religious freedom
will be allowed to exist.
00:11:26.05\00:11:29.43
I pray that as Turkey
and the neighbors of course
00:11:29.46\00:11:32.48
which are in
turmoil move towards
00:11:32.51\00:11:34.43
some sort of
greatest self determination,
00:11:34.46\00:11:38.02
but freedom will win out
and that the individual citizen
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will able find
their spiritual destiny.
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For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln steed.
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