Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you discussion
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about religious
liberty events, developments
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and issues around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed.
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I'm editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Tina Ramirez
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from the Becket Foundation,
and you're the liaison
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for Congress in Washington
and international events
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as well-- and the UN I noticed.
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Yeah. You have many, many hats.
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Yes, I do. I want
to talk about Turkey,
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and not the American turkey,
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not thanksgiving, but
the country of Turkey.
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I have always been
fascinated by Turkey
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and of course
that part of the world
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has a long and ancient history.
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And in fact one of the places
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that I'd love to
go to is Istanbul.
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Yeah, you should you go.
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I've thought
about it a lot recently.
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You know, it's
the ancient Byzantium.
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Yeah, yeah.
Almost a favorite place.
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But Turkey is
really going through
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some interesting changes
at the moment, isn't that?
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Yeah, definitely.
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In fact, one of the more
sensational news of Turkey
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not too long ago
was Pope Benedict.
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Oh, the Regensburg
speech. Regensburg speech.
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Yeah. He inadvertently offended
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some Muslim sensibilities
in a makeup session.
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He went then to
Istanbul to Turkey
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and prayed in the Blue Mosque.
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Yeah, it created a
quite a stir that's for sure.
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So I think that
reminded lot of people
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might not have
been aware of Turkey
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and its culture
and its religion.
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And really how
grand presence it has.
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Yeah, you know it's true.
It's a very significant country
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within the Middle
East and within Europe.
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And so it borders
both regions and--
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And it's a NATO ally.
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And so in a certain
sense it's linked with the West
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and yet culturally it's
very much Middle Eastern
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and predominantly
Islamic population.
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But at least in the modern
era it's been a secular regime.
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What was that? Kemal Ataturk,
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westernized the
country by force,
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tamped down
religious sensibilities
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or at least its religion's
control over the government.
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But we're heading a little bit
away from that way, aren't we?
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Yeah, you know, you can
try to suppress religion
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as much as you
want, but it's inherent
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who we are as human beings
that it only lasts so long.
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And so what we've seen in Turkey
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is this resurgence
of Islam and of Sufism
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and just religious expression
throughout the country
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because with the rise of
Erdogan and his government--
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And he is really a fundamental,
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well that's a really long word.
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He is an Islamist,
isn't it? Well, he is--
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His party is an Islamist party.
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Yeah, and his
party has had several--
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Iterations. Yes,
I don't know exactly
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what to say. I mean it started
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with the AKP party which was
banned or the Refah Partisi--
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I'm sorry. Well,
they spent some time
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in prison, isn't
it? Yeah, it started
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as Refah
Partisi that was banned.
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There was a big case
that went all the way
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to European
court of human rights,
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trying to determine
whether it's legitimate
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for the government
to get rid of a party
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because it was
a religious party.
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Because at that
time, as you explained
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the government
was completely secular
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and so you weren't allowed
to have religious parties.
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And so then it transformed
itself into the AKP party,
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which now at the
end are there in power
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and what they've
done is tried to open up
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religious freedom for many
Muslims within the country.
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So there isn't such fear
of being Muslim and religious,
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and expressing
yourself within the country.
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And so for
instance the headscarf issue
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has been a major
issue there and Becket Fund
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was involved in this case
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at the European
court of human rights.
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I know that.
Yeah, fascinating case.
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They can read
about it on our website.
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But essentially the case
was over whether the headscarf
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is a political
symbol or religious one,
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and whether it's a threat
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to the national
security, national identity.
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And so the APK
party has been very good
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at trying to help
improve the freedom of people
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to express
themselves religiously,
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even if that means
bringing out headscarf.
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And this is a right that
people should have everywhere
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whether it's in France which
wants to ban religious garb
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such as headscarves or anywhere.
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But because it's so tightened
to this history for secularism,
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it really has opened up these
kind of worlds within Turkey
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over the role of religion
and society and to what extent
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that's compatible with this
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secularist Kemal
Ataturk tradition.
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I should throw
something and I hope
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our viewers understand.
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I mean the
religious issue is the same,
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but in Turkey this headscarf
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is quite literary
often just the scarf.
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Yeah, its not a-- It's
not like the abaya or the--
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Right, it's just headscarf.
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Or these black heavy veils
that you see in Saudi Arabia
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or some other
Middle Eastern countries.
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Hmm, hmm. It's a really
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almost a fashion
statement connected
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to religious
sensibility, isn't it?
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Well, it's, I mean
I can't speak for them
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but it's definitely
a religious expression
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that many of them
choose and many don't choose.
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I mean you can go to
Turkey and see people
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wearing the
headscarf or not wearing it.
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So it's a diverse society
for a lot of different views.
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But really the
issue at hand right now
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is what will be
the role of religion
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in the future of Turkey?
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As you know
they're going through
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constitutional review process
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where they're trying to
re-write the constitution
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and this issue has really--
it's come up quite a bit,
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but it's also been
suppressed because it's really--
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there's a lot of
different opinions on it.
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Well, I have read a
lot of news reports on it.
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But I don't
remember reading anything
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that reports on
general view of the population.
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What are their opinions? Where
are they tending in their--
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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I was in Turkey just last month,
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and when I was
there one of the questions
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we were asking was what
are-- what is the public opinion
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about religion
in the constitution,
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and you know,
expanding religious freedom?
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And there's couple
of different views.
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In general, most
people are not confident
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that this issue will be
resolved in the constitution
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and there hasn't been
a lot of public discourse
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on religious freedom in Turkey.
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There's been a lot
of public discourse
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about two other prominent issues
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in the constitutional
debate that's going on.
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One is whether they'll
adopt a presidential system
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and then the Kurdish
question of ethnic identity
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and whether that
would be recognized.
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But really underlying both of
those two were prominent issues
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within Turkey right
now-- is this underlying issue
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of much of the fears of
the people that are concerned
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with whether the country
goes for presidential system
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are afraid that
Erdogan will become
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a president for
life essentially.
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This model that we've
seen-- It's happened before.
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That we've seen
much in the Middle East.
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Yeah and so
there's this great fear
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amongst
secularists within the society
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that's what it will become.
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And his movement into
expanding the freedom of Islam
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within expressing
itself publicly will lead
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itself into a more
religiously-- imposed society.
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And so that's a fear.
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But then on the other
side, with the Kurdish issue
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is this question
of ethnic identity.
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And, you know, can you
have-- can you have an identity,
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national identity that
includes many different faiths
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and ethnic communities or not?
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And traditionally the government
has been purely secularist.
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And of course
they've recognized Islam
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as the religion of the
majority of the people,
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but they've suppressed
many of their ethnic minorities.
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The Kurds have
been the largest one.
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But if you look at
the Greeks and the Syriacs
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and the
Armenians, they've also been
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equally suppressed as
well as they're living.
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Sure. The Armenian
question still not settled.
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I mean that was come
up to the UN recently.
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What I will bring
out for our viewers
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and it's not directly the
way you're leading a discussion,
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but it's worth
remembering that Constantinople
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was once the major
center of Christianity.
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It was vying a
Roman Constantinople
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that vied for attention.
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We tend to think it
was an Islamic country,
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but it was the massive
center of Christianity.
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Oh, absolutely for
the Eastern Church.
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I mean that was a
center of Byzantium.
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I mean it was, I mean
for the Greek Orthodox Church
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that was the center
and for a long time,
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I mean it was the center
for the all of Christian dome.
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And then if you look
out the Syriac church
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which still speaks
Aramaic and the language--
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It's a good point here.
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Yeah, the language
of Aramaic is actually
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in jeopardy right now because
of the situation in Syria
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and what's happening in Turkey.
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But the Syriac church has
a monastery in eastern Turkey
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called Mor Gabriel Monastery
which dates back to the 300.
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It's one of the
oldest monasteries
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in the Christian church.
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And there's was a seat
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of the Syriac church
for a number of years.
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And so in that church as well,
we can talk about it later,
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is also in jeopardy.
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Yeah, let's come back to that.
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Yeah. The other
thing that's worth
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remembering and many
members of my church,
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older ones
probably, that remember
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discussions of prophecy
and history know the importance
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that we had once
played or placed on Turkey.
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Because this sultan
of Turkey was very much
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the expansionary time
of Islam, up in the Europe,
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the time of Martin Luther.
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So this is incredible.
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This is at
crossroads country really,
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the way to see
it. Oh, absolutely.
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Yeah, it's always been
at the crossroads of history
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and even for our faith, I mean
many Christians still go there,
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and do pilgrimages
throughout the different,
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the Seven Churches
of the Revelation of--
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Absolutely.
That's another point.
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The role in that
general area. Ephesus.
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And I mean I would
encourage everybody
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to go visit Ephesus, its
amazing place, or Cappadocia
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where the Catacombs are.
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I mean the history
there is phenomenal.
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And then again back on Islam,
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there was the Turkish
Sultan and Constantinople
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and then the center in
Baghdad, but those are the two
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expansionary centers of Islam,
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Baghdad and then Constantinople,
not Saudi Arabia--
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that's what a
lot of people think.
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That's a product
really of World War I
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and the discovery of
oil and the oil business.
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But it's a
massive cultural center
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from a religious and a
political point of view.
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It is. And the
Turkish government really
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wants to
positionitself within the world
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as a place of tolerance or
respect for religious freedom.
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And the bridges, the divide
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between the
Middle East and Europe.
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And the process to
get into European Union
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is pretty much been stalled.
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But Angela Merkel
was-- The German chancellor.
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Yeah, the German chancellor
was in Turkey recently.
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And she spent a lot
of time with Erdogan,
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talking about the
religious minority problem.
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So even though the EU process--
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Germany is big problem. Yeah.
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Yeah, but I mean but what
it was great that she spent
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so much time focusing
on the fact that to bridge
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this divide you need to take
seriously religious minorities
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and religious freedom
because this is such an inherent
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and foundational
part of human freedom
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and democracy around the world.
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And if you want to be a
model to the Middle East,
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and you want to be
connected to the West,
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then really you need
to deal with these issues.
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So unfortunately in
this constitutional process
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in Turkey, they have
been overlooking that issue.
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And its because they recognized
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that it is such a
difficult issue that it really,
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when the Ottoman empire
fell at the world war I,
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and it was it was obviously
split up and the empire
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as you've mentioned that
was expanded was restricted.
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And the Lausanne convention
is really what regulates
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the treaty that ended that,
that in the Ottoman Empire.
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And they
recognized three minorities-
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the Jewish community,
the Armenian community,
00:12:08.02\00:12:09.94
and Greek community.
00:12:09.97\00:12:11.18
But there are
number of communities
00:12:11.21\00:12:12.47
that are
recognized and even those
00:12:12.50\00:12:14.03
three minorities groups
don't have equal protection.
00:12:14.06\00:12:17.10
And so right now, really
for the future of Turkey,
00:12:17.13\00:12:20.77
and how we move forward it needs
00:12:20.80\00:12:23.16
to begin to
deal with this issue.
00:12:23.19\00:12:24.45
Now when you say
there's no protection in Turkey,
00:12:24.48\00:12:26.23
how does that lack
of protection manifest
00:12:26.26\00:12:28.02
itself so presently in Turkey?
00:12:28.05\00:12:30.13
Well, a number of
the problems relate
00:12:30.16\00:12:31.85
to property
right and registration.
00:12:31.88\00:12:34.27
The most prominent example
would be the Halki seminary
00:12:34.30\00:12:37.07
which is where the
Greek Orthodox Church
00:12:37.10\00:12:38.75
trains its
pastors-- it's bishops.
00:12:38.78\00:12:41.27
And it hasn't been able
to operate it since the 70s.
00:12:41.30\00:12:44.14
So this is a major problem
for one of the largest churches
00:12:44.17\00:12:47.36
in the world with
historic roots in Turkey
00:12:47.39\00:12:50.19
that is unable to
continue to exist.
00:12:50.22\00:12:53.39
Another problem would
be that they're unable
00:12:53.42\00:12:56.28
to teach in their own language.
00:12:56.31\00:12:57.44
So Aramaic, for instance,
they can't train people
00:12:57.47\00:13:00.21
in their ancient
languages, but you could say
00:13:00.24\00:13:02.29
the same thing to Armenian
and of other ancient languages.
00:13:02.32\00:13:05.35
The languages are--
00:13:05.38\00:13:06.58
The languages of their religion.
00:13:06.61\00:13:08.71
Well, they're not allowed to it.
00:13:08.74\00:13:10.78
It would be violation of
the constitution in Turkish,
00:13:10.81\00:13:13.64
and a threat to that, right.
00:13:13.67\00:13:15.76
There's a restriction
on using those languages.
00:13:15.79\00:13:19.84
But they--
That's very prejudicial.
00:13:19.87\00:13:21.76
That's only in a few
countries that sort of thing.
00:13:21.79\00:13:23.75
So if you can't
train your clergy,
00:13:23.78\00:13:25.44
if your property is
confiscated and not returned,
00:13:25.47\00:13:28.09
if you're unable to speak
in your religious language,
00:13:28.12\00:13:31.40
which I can
only imagine a Muslim
00:13:31.43\00:13:33.99
that wouldn't be
able to speak in Arabic,
00:13:34.02\00:13:35.57
how offensive
that would be to them.
00:13:35.60\00:13:37.86
Then this is a major
problem for maintaining
00:13:37.89\00:13:40.00
your religious communities.
00:13:40.03\00:13:41.20
And so what we see in Turkey is
really the threatened survival
00:13:41.23\00:13:45.48
of these ancient communities,
whether it's Alawite Muslim
00:13:45.51\00:13:49.00
or Syriac orthodox Christian.
00:13:49.03\00:13:52.28
It's a familiar
story to other discussions,
00:13:52.31\00:13:54.83
other places in the
Middle East that ancient
00:13:54.86\00:13:58.26
religious minorities are
really a threat at the moment.
00:13:58.29\00:14:01.24
They're just being pushed
00:14:01.27\00:14:02.45
to the margins
numerically in their practice.
00:14:02.48\00:14:06.50
You know, this is an
interesting picture of Turkey
00:14:06.53\00:14:08.10
because I know
Turkey has been given
00:14:08.13\00:14:10.24
a very
progressive image of light.
00:14:10.27\00:14:14.36
We need to comeback before
I get into further discussion.
00:14:14.39\00:14:17.95
We'll be back after a
short break, stay with us.
00:14:17.98\00:14:20.98