Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tina Ramirez
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000212B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with, Tina Ramirez, 00:10 we were talking about the plight of number of refugees 00:14 but particularly from Iraq and particularly Christians 00:17 but some other minorities. 00:19 As they try to come here they're ironically 00:21 because of the PATRIOT Act being sort of mixed up 00:23 with those with the terrorist background. 00:26 Yeah, it's an unfortunate that our refugee process created 00:30 this ambiguous standard debars 00:32 the very people it was intended to protect. 00:34 Yeah. So in 2007 actually in order to fix this problem 00:38 because it didn't just affect Iraqi Christians, 00:40 it affected people in Burma 00:42 that have been kidnapped by the Burmese army. 00:44 It affected people in Ethiopia and Somalia 00:47 and Afghanistan and all over the world. 00:49 You're giving me ideas, we could have any number 00:50 of problems out there. Yeah. Yeah. 00:52 There's so many ongoing situations. 00:53 Essentially what it did was it created a terrorism related 00:56 inadmissibility grounds for refugee status. 00:59 And in this 3rd Tier triage category 01:03 or 3rd Tier category essentially what it did is that. 01:07 Anybody that had provided material support 01:10 to not just a terrorist group but anybody affiliated 01:13 with terrorist group could then be barred 01:16 on the triage ground. 01:18 And so I had to mention, I had written 01:20 in the Seeking Refuge article about a story of an Iraqi 01:24 or an Iranian family that is seeking refuge in Iraq 01:27 and in the United States from Iraq that had been barred 01:31 on the grounds of living in an apartment building 01:33 that was run by some communist from Iran 01:36 and because they had paid rent to the communist. 01:38 Yeah, I mean, they didn't even- 01:39 They had no idea. 01:41 They might not have been party members. 01:42 They were just basically communists 01:44 people that hated Iran. 01:45 And of course, you know people 01:47 who hate Iran are our enemies, right. 01:49 So because of that they were barred admissibility 01:53 under the terrorism- related inadmissibility grounds. 01:56 And so the problem is that this is happening 01:58 to persecuted people throughout the world 02:01 that are trying to come to United States for refuge 02:03 but because the problem like 02:05 I had said is so disproportionately affecting 02:07 Christians and other persecuting religious minorities in Iraq, 02:10 it's created a huge problem for us. 02:12 And so people that really can't go anywhere safe. 02:16 I mean if you're a Christian in Iraq, 02:18 I mean where are you going to go, 02:19 Syria, no, Egypt, no, Turkey, 02:21 no, I mean there's nowhere to go. 02:23 And not only is it a new society with all the dangers 02:28 there but not too many can take their resources 02:31 with them so they-- Right. 02:33 There were in the more and more tenuous social situations 02:35 they move around. Very vulnerable. 02:36 And so what happens is that they enter this process 02:38 to come to the United States. 02:40 And during that the interview process, 02:42 they get asked questions and part of these questions 02:45 then bar them from admissibility. 02:47 Do they know? Do you think these people 02:48 is they're well known, what are the triages. 02:52 Yeah, I mean the US, 02:54 the Department of Homeland Security 02:56 people that are interviewing them know 02:58 and that's why they send their files 03:00 into this bureaucratic black hole. 03:02 I know-but do you think these Christians, these refugees? 03:04 I'm sure that the Christians have 03:06 no idea how to get through it. 03:07 But if you are a terrorist or somebody 03:08 that is savvy enough. I'm sure-- 03:11 That's what I'm fencing for. Right, I'm sure that they know 03:12 how to get through the process. They're the innocents that are-- 03:14 But it's the innocents that are always. 03:16 Stumbling under these regulations 03:17 but probably if they knew it ahead of time, 03:19 they just not say the wrong thing. 03:20 You would be careful. But just be careful. 03:22 No, never, everybody has to be careful, I'll not say it. 03:24 Yeah. But so what happened 03:25 is that in 2007 Senator Leahy and Senator Kehoe, 03:30 a Republican and the Democrat came together 03:32 and they passed new legislation and they told President Bush 03:35 and since then they've told President Obama, 03:37 "fix this problem." 03:38 You've got thousands and thousands of people 03:40 that are in this bureaucratic black hole 03:43 that are suffering enormous persecution. 03:45 They can't get out of the country. 03:47 They have nowhere else to go because 03:49 there's no surrounding country that's going to take them 03:51 or that's going that will be safe for them 03:53 if they do get there. 03:54 And other countries take such a limited number of refugees 03:57 that really this is their only option, 04:00 we're providing life saving protection for them. 04:03 Allow them to at least go through 04:06 the process of proving their innocence. 04:09 But we don't even let them prove their innocence. 04:10 We just assume that they're automatically associated 04:12 with the terrorists and then they should 04:13 then be barred inadmissibility. 04:15 So what will happen with this initiative, by the way-- 04:17 Well, it was passed in Congress. I'll make it add here 04:18 and I'm not a paid political head 04:20 but I've been-I've long been impressed by Senator Leahy. 04:24 He has been involved in some very good initiatives. 04:26 I think he is an outstanding politician. 04:29 Well, there's been a number of really good members of Congress 04:31 that have been involved in this issue 04:32 but Leahy and Kehoe--Kehoe is no longer with the Senate. 04:35 You know they were very instrumental in trying 04:39 to convince President Bush 04:40 and then President Obama to deal with this. 04:42 Well, basically since 2007 nothing happened 04:45 and so a group of organizations got together, 04:49 a broad coalition from the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society 04:51 which has really taking a lead 04:53 to the human rights first organization and world, 04:57 I think world vision or world relief 04:58 had to go with other organizations. 05:00 And the Becket Fund and number of groups 05:01 have come together and said, look this problem, 05:04 this refugee problem is really affecting persecuted people 05:09 in a way that it was never intended. 05:11 And so deal with the Tier 3 in the way that you want. 05:15 But allow people that are persecuted, 05:17 they have legitimate reasons for coming 05:19 and for proving their innocence. 05:21 That they have no association with terrorism 05:23 to get here and to get through this process 05:26 in the dignified manner, not one that really 05:28 treats them in a way that just causes 05:30 greater psychological-- Where they could at least, 05:33 they could, I imagine as you say when they're interviewing, 05:37 if this came up they would just sort of you know strike off 05:40 because they dumped up against 05:41 their criteria. And then they get 05:43 a letter in the mail. But at least they can 05:44 investigate further and find out-- 05:45 Right. Is this person 05:47 unconnected or connected? And most of these are so easy 05:50 but what happens is that they're interviewed in the country 05:51 and then it comes back to the US. 05:53 The bureaucracy, the checklist, 05:55 it goes this way therefore there is no going back. 05:59 So really, so over the summer actually 06:02 this broad coalition of organizations came together. 06:05 We wrote a letter to the president 06:07 and we said in light of the 60th anniversary 06:10 of the UN convention on refugees please deal with this problem. 06:14 Because this is one of the greatest problems 06:16 to refugee processing in the US right now. 06:19 And it's something that is intrinsic in the fabric 06:22 of who we're as a country 06:23 that we are heaven for persecuted people. 06:26 And so we sent the letter, there wasn't a response 06:30 but the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security 06:33 in August-- there's about 47,000 people 06:36 that are already in the US. 06:38 But after the PATRIOT Act was passed were then 06:40 barred under this triage issue from going through the process 06:45 of becoming permanent residents and citizens. 06:47 So they're not in these in detention camps I think. 06:50 No, no they had already received refugee status. 06:52 This is the absurd part about it. 06:53 They've gone through the process, 06:55 they've proved that they're innocent. 06:56 They came here and then after a year 06:58 you can appeal for permanent status. 07:00 And they were in that process but because 07:02 the PATRIOT Act passed after they came they are then 07:05 barred on some grounds that don't even exists essentially 07:08 because they were innocent people. 07:10 So we sent a letter to secretary 07:11 and we said there's 4,700 people here, 07:13 can you at least deal with them. 07:14 And then can you deal with the problem 07:16 this bureaucratic black hole across the rest the world 07:19 as well that's barring people from coming to the US. 07:22 The secretary decided to allow 4,000 07:24 of those cases to processed. 07:27 But so far she has done nothing 07:28 and so that was last August and so for the last 07:31 7-8 months nothing has happened. 07:34 So this is the real humanitarian crisis. 07:36 Oh, absolutely. I mean a lot of the people 07:38 of the 4,000-- part of their family members 07:41 are still overseas there. 07:42 I mean you've got separated families. 07:44 You've got-- and these are legitimate refugees. 07:46 They passed the stand, the bar 07:48 I mean they went through the process. 07:49 It's just because of this nefarious concept 07:52 in the PATRIOT Act that has just created 07:55 such psychological trauma and chaos 07:58 for them and their families. 07:59 A lot of history is unintended consequences 08:02 and I don't think anybody really imagines 08:05 that it would make hard, bit hard for people 08:08 with you know with refugee, religious liberty issues. 08:10 I don't think it was anyone's intention. 08:12 I don't know the answer to this even as I read your article 08:14 and as I read other things on this. 08:16 It is a hard thing because in the war on terror 08:20 which I remember Secretary Rumsfeld 08:22 said ominously that this would last our lifetime. 08:26 We can expect, you know, with the bust and bombing 08:29 and so on, the tensions arising. 08:32 You know, the reasons for this barrier in the first place 08:34 is not going to spontaneously disappear 08:36 and here these people are in limbo. 08:38 Right. It troubles me greatly. 08:40 And by the way I think I had mentioned 08:42 on this program in another context but I never told you. 08:46 Australia is battling with this not necessarily 08:48 just Christian refugees but they have long 08:51 had Iraqi refugees making their ways through 08:54 Asia ironically renting tramp steamers, 08:57 you know about this? 08:59 Scuttling them of Christmas Island. 09:01 Yeah. And Australia even sold 09:04 some of them curiously to the Island of Nauru, 09:07 $16,000 a person they paid that island to take them. 09:11 Then others still kept coming. 09:12 So they've imprisoned them in the center of Australia. 09:15 And they had the hunger strikes 09:17 where they even sealed on their mouths together. 09:19 And the country will not accept those 09:22 for some reason it impressed Australia 09:24 that they're terrorists and among them. 09:26 Well, I think this gets back to something 09:27 we've talked about earlier which is that the problem 09:32 isn't just dealing with the refugee crisis, 09:36 it's will let up to that. 09:37 And the chaos that's happening in the Middle East right now. 09:40 And if you don't have a policy for any country 09:43 in the west that looks at the broader picture 09:46 of the human impact of your actions 09:49 then this is what we can expect. 09:50 And it is difficult for countries to take 09:53 in a lot of new populations and it's difficult 09:55 for surrounding countries to integrate them 09:57 in their communities when they're going through 09:59 so much chaos right now as well. 10:01 And so it really is incumbent upon us to deal 10:03 with what we can right now which is this triage problem 10:05 to take the ones in that have legitimately gone through 10:09 this process and that are refugees that are, 10:11 that aren't international security threat in anyway 10:13 that are innocent and they can't remain where they are. 10:16 As a matter of principle. As a matter of principle. 10:18 I mean it's not going to destabilize American life 10:19 and we're running out of time. Right. 10:21 But, you know, like Jordan I heard the numbers 10:24 in the millions where refugees 10:26 that are flooding in the Jordan. 10:27 That will destabilize that country. 10:29 Oh, absolutely. And they've been 10:30 welcoming to them. It already is destabilizing 10:32 in these countries, I mean 10:33 with Syria, with Lebanon, with Jordan its-- 10:35 So we're living through a massive historical shift 10:38 in that part of the world that we probably 10:41 will not see anything like that in our lifetimes again. 10:43 Yeah and going back to the comment that the person 10:46 in Syria had mentioned to me they don't really know 10:49 if they will be able to remain there 10:51 any longer with the chaos there. 10:53 I think that what we have to do is really consider 10:57 reaching out to secretary Napolitano 10:58 and president and urging him to deal with this triage problem 11:01 to allow those people that have gone through the process 11:04 to prove their innocence and to receive 11:07 the lifesaving protection that refugee status provides them. 11:10 So we can at least save the few. 11:14 Babylon is about 50 miles south of Baghdad. 11:18 For those that are interested in such things 11:20 and if you're interested in the Old Testament, 11:22 you'll remember that the Jews were captive in Babylon 11:25 for quite about 70 years. 11:27 But eventually they had to leave and they dispersed 11:30 not just back to their homeland but all over the world. 11:33 Today we're seeing a similar phenomenon 11:36 after the invasion of Iraq by the United States. 11:40 The formally well protected Christian minority 11:43 there ironically are now being dispersed 11:46 as refugees all over the world. 11:48 It's a rather ironic and sad statement to suggest 11:53 that far too few of them are allowed 11:55 to settle in the United States. 11:57 The precipitator of the cataclysm 12:00 and also a country that is long stood 12:02 for religious freedom and had been a welcoming heaven 12:05 for refugees particularly those from religious persecution. 12:09 We do hope and I'm sure you'll pray 12:12 with me that such refugees with such sensibilities, 12:16 ancient Christian populations from an old land 12:23 to find a homeland, a new home to practice their faith. 12:29 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17