Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you discussion,
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news, views and
information on many different
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religious liberty
issues in the United States
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Tina Ramirez
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from the Becket Foundation.
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And, Tina, you wrote an article
for Liberty some time ago,
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concerning refugees from Iraq.
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Now, our viewers
may or may not be aware
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that religious liberty has
become a serious issue in Iraq.
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It wasn't just an
invasion and desperate--
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and all that sort of stuff.
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The group of
people at least a million
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and I've read figures as
high as 2 million Christians
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were living in Iraq.
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They were protected
ironically by the despot
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but since that
invasion, Islamic factions
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has predominantly have pretty
much turned on the Christians
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and over about 200,000 of them
have either left their refugees
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and of course many have died.
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Where have they gone and
how do they find the situation
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when they flee
to other countries.
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Do they come to
the United States?
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I haven't met too many Iraqi's.
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Really, no they do, they do,
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you have to go to
California I guess,
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California, Tennessee
and some other places.
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In Atlanta I remember going
and renting a car in Atlanta
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and the manager of
the car rental agency
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was an Iraqi colonel.
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Yeah. And he told me all about
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what had happened
there but not very often.
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No. Is it, are these Christians,
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Iraqi Christians
leaving the country,
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are they're finding
that they're finding,
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are they finding
safe heaven here?
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Yeah, I mean the problem
as you've said is much bigger
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and I wrote about it in
the Seeking Refuge article
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that you published. Thank you.
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Yes. And I
really enjoyed writing
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that and being able
to share it with people
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because the problem isn't just
what's happening over there.
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It's their
inability to find refuge here
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and in other western
countries-- when they're facing
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such egregious
persecution at home that really
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there's no other way
they can, they can survive.
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So as you had
mentioned, there's about
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1.6 million
Christians that were in Iraq.
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Yeah. Prior to the war.
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You've probably--I'm sure
you've got more accurate figure.
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Yeah. But I have usually
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told people a million but
I read recently 2 million.
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So I'm now little unsure.
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I mean it's hard to
number them accurately
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because of the
lack of census there.
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But there are about 1.6 million
that's the estimated number
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most people go off.
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But since the war two-thirds of
them have left or being killed.
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And so you have a community
where there's one-third left.
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And where for
instance pastor that I know,
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pastor in
Baghdad who is pastoring
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in Armenian Protestant church.
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He has so few
people left in his church
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because they've fled
because of the persecution
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that he can barely
afford to keep his own church.
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And so all of the
services, the social services
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and everything that
they did for the community
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are in jeopardy now.
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And not only that but
then they're also facing
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the added fear of people in
the community attacking them
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or terrorists coming
in and threatening them.
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People still as they're
on the buses or they're going
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to work get letters
from somebody that will say,
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you know leave now or die.
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People are still kidnapped.
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People are still
attacked physically.
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Many of the Christians in Iraq
proper have fled to Kurdistan.
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To Syria I understand.
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And that's the great irony,
now they're refugees again.
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Yeah, no a number of
them had fled to Syria
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that was basically
part of the Kurdish area,
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it was just an entryway for
them to get out of the country.
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And so they fled
to Syria, Lebanon,
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Jordan and try to go
to many other countries.
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In Syria they're now
because of the war there,
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so many of them are stuck
again and need to get out.
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And I'm sure you saw
the recent the two bishops
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that were recently
kidnapped in Syria.
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So it's really a
horrific situation for them.
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And we'll talk about
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it if we get a
chance on another program.
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That I like to
characterize what's happening
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in the Middle East
where the Arab Spring
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which followed on
from the invasion of Iraq.
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In some ways this
is a final expulsion
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of Christians
from the Middle East.
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Yeah. It's not
just an isolated case
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bit in this
country or bit in that.
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It's pretty much across
the whole region, isn't it?
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Yeah, and it's
not just Christians,
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its all religious minorities.
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I think it's interesting
you have this major access
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of the Jewish
communities throughout
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the Middle East in 1947-48.
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And so for instance in Baghdad
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you had I think
37 Jewish members
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of the Jewish
community remaining
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at the beginning
of the Iraqi War.
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And then now you
have I think seven left.
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Yeah. And they were
exposed with WikiLeaks.
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Yeah, and so it's--
I mean that's I think
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a 90% decrease with
the Mandaean population
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you had 50,000
Mandaeans which were followers
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of John the Baptist.
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And they are passivists,
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so they don't
believe in fighting.
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They were also a
lot jewelry merchants
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and so they were specifically
targeted after the war.
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They had 50,000
members and now they are down
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to 5,000 left in Iraq.
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So that's a
huge, huge, decrease.
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I mean it's yeah and
it's total dislocation
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of entire communities,
entire religious community.
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And then you look at the
Yazidis which are somewhat
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of a Zoroastrians community,
a mixture of Zoroastrianism
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and Islam but they are based
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in Kurdistan in
the Kurdish region.
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Well, I thought
they originate from Iran.
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They were
Zoroastrians and the Yazidis
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I believe that there
are communities in Iran
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either but their
temple Lalish is in Kurdistan.
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And they had-- I
believe it was like
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1.3 million
people prior to the war,
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they've been reduced by a third,
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either by attacks or by
being forced out of the country.
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This is slightly off but I
need to know and our viewers
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I'm sure would be curious.
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Is there any accurate
tally of how many people
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really died during the invasion
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and the years of the occupation?
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Well, I don't--
that's not something I could,
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I don't have a rough
answer but I'm sure that--
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I've read such diversion views,
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US military give
out tiny figures,
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few hundred thousand.
Well, I think that, yeah.
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That it's some, I suppose
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it's the British Lancet Magazine
which is a curious source
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but that I think
they were 500,000.
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But anyway you cut
it, there was a huge cost
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in human life in
this dislocation.
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Right and I think the
important thing to remember
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is that of all the
people that fled Iraq 17%
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of all the refugees
were religious minorities.
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But religious
minorities only made it up to 3%
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of the total Iraqi
population prior to the war.
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So for them to make up
such a disproportionate
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amount of the
refugees, just goes to show you
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how much they were affected.
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And of course, there's Sunni
and Shia violence throughout
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Iraq as well that
shouldn't be discounted.
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But the fact is that
minorities throughout Iraq
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and then the rest
of the Middle East
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are really being just
strangled in a position
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where they really can't
survive any longer there.
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You'd mentioned
Syria when I actually
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two and a half years
ago prior to the Arab Spring
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I was traveling through
Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan,
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Iraq the whole
that whole region.
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And when I was Syria, a
prominent religious leader
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told me that they've survived
there for aver 2,000 years
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or nearly 2,000 years
but they really felt like
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they were at a
point where the remnant
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that had survived
and had gone through
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so much oppression
from different regimes.
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This was the apocalypse.
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That they really they didn't
see that they could survive
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again another major
catastrophe and really
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what they were most
concerned about was they knew
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that Iraq--that the Christians
there had been protected
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in the Baghdad's regime
as bad as the regime was.
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And they said that if something
like what happens in Iraq
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where you take out
Saddam, you take out a dictator
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whether it's Assad or Mubarak
or somebody else at the time.
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If you take out
another dictator,
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another one falls,
what's going to happen
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to the Christians and
the religious minorities
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then because they
haven't been able to survive.
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They've been so
disproportionately effected
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in the aftermath of the
conflict in Iraq and in Syria
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it was this foreshadowing
really it was a fascinating
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conversation of
what is going to happen
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to us and now
you're going to help us
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or you're going
to treat us like you
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treated the Iraqis
and just forget us.
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And that was really
the question and I think
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it's a good question
for Christians and people
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in our country to be
thinking about like right now
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with what's happening in Syria
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and the rest of the Middle East.
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It was-- I mean
this guy predicted it,
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are we going to help them
finally or we going to just--
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Well, it's always
complicated for a nation
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to meddle in
another nation's affairs.
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And I don't I think
you or I can say that--
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I don't--the evidence
I have that I can pick up
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the US
government is very unclear
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about how to interject in Syria.
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But it's a
little clearer I think
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how the community of nations
can deal with people fleeing
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those areas in this
case for religious problems.
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Can they come to the US?
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Right yeah. Is this
is a welcoming heaven?
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Has it been? Yeah,
and that's the question
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in hand, I mean historically
America has been this-
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I mean the Statue
of Liberty is really
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the great example of
it. Have those message
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longing to be
filled Yeah. Right.
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That we have been
a refuge for people
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and not just anyone
but for persecuted people.
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I mean if you look at the--
even the founding of America
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prior to the, prior to becoming
a country just the Puritans
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and the Pilgrims and
the Catholics and Huguenots
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just about everybody came
here for religious freedom.
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We didn't always get it right.
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But they came here for that
and we have created a country
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and a constitution
that prioritize this.
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And right now
unfortunately and you can speak
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to many other western countries
as well that are beginning
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to restrict their
immigration of refugees
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but in the United States
since that's where we are at,
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we will just speak to that.
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Our immigration policies
are so troubling that people
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that have been
severely persecuted.
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They were traditionally be
able to come and find refuge
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here are unable to.
00:10:07.50\00:10:09.36
And it's-- our
policies have created
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a class of status for
these persecuted refugees
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that is basically
treating them as terrorists
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because they've been
persecuted by terrorists.
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And that's what so
frightening I think.
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I think the backdrop of
it is the US entered Iraq.
00:10:24.76\00:10:29.11
And you know
there's a wartime situation
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and they're afraid if
people coming from there
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that they might be
continuing the war.
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They automatically suspect.
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Well, it was an
unfortunate consequence of--
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He's a terrorist but
I think this is just--
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Yeah. You know the whole thing
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might spillover to this country
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if they bring them
in and so it's been
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reticence to
really let anyone in.
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You know the
numbers better than me.
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But until a couple of
years ago the US had admitted
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very close to
nobody, just I think
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a few hundred maximum
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Oh, I mean we do bring in
quite a few refugees every year.
00:10:59.42\00:11:03.18
But from Iraq.
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From all over the world.
00:11:04.52\00:11:05.73
No, but from Iraq, it
had been minuscule in that.
00:11:05.76\00:11:08.17
Yeah, the numbers have
changed over the years.
00:11:08.20\00:11:11.82
But they were definitely, I mean
00:11:11.85\00:11:12.92
they were still processing
refugees from the Gulf War.
00:11:12.95\00:11:18.51
At the time of this war
00:11:18.54\00:11:19.66
and so it's
definitely complicated things.
00:11:19.69\00:11:21.69
They were, I mean it's been
00:11:21.72\00:11:24.02
very complicated but I
think that the important thing
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for people to
understand is that,
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right now what's happening
is that the PATRIOT Act
00:11:27.85\00:11:31.24
that was really this
post 9/11 legislation. Yeah.
00:11:31.27\00:11:36.37
What it included was a
new category for refugees
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and so for classifying
how they're admitted.
00:11:41.56\00:11:44.53
And what it did is that it
said that there is a Tier 1
00:11:44.56\00:11:47.39
which is you're
clearly a terrorist,
00:11:47.42\00:11:48.60
you're designated,
you're on a terrorist list.
00:11:48.63\00:11:50.07
There is a Tier 2 II
which are people associated
00:11:50.10\00:11:52.22
with terrorists and there's
this Tier 3 that they created
00:11:52.25\00:11:54.40
in the PATRIOT Act
which was supposed to include
00:11:54.43\00:11:57.12
anyone giving
material support to terrorists.
00:11:57.15\00:11:59.61
Yeah. But the problem
00:11:59.64\00:12:00.80
is that it was such
a-- it was such a poorly
00:12:00.83\00:12:03.40
defined category that
the way it was interpreted
00:12:03.43\00:12:05.82
is that anybody
that was persecuted.
00:12:05.85\00:12:08.31
Let say somebody
that was kidnapped,
00:12:08.34\00:12:10.06
a Mandaean that was
kidnapped by a terrorist in Iraq
00:12:10.09\00:12:13.59
and then the family paid
ransom and got the person back.
00:12:13.62\00:12:16.27
Yeah. They were then
denied refugee status
00:12:16.30\00:12:18.32
to the US under this
Tier 3 category because
00:12:18.35\00:12:21.83
they provided material
support. Financial support.
00:12:21.86\00:12:24.61
For getting somebody
out that was kidnapped.
00:12:24.64\00:12:27.54
The sad thing though is
that this Tier 3 category
00:12:27.57\00:12:30.29
has even
impacted Iraqi civilians
00:12:30.32\00:12:34.46
that were
translators for the US military
00:12:34.49\00:12:38.17
as that there's a number
of cases not just in Iraq
00:12:38.20\00:12:39.95
but also in Afghanistan,
a translators that had been
00:12:39.98\00:12:43.79
that have had their
refugee status held up because
00:12:43.82\00:12:47.94
they're now being
deemed as having provided
00:12:47.97\00:12:50.32
material support to
terrorists simply for some--
00:12:50.35\00:12:53.70
It's a bureaucratic
nightmare because I don't,
00:12:53.73\00:12:56.64
I think it goes against
00:12:56.67\00:12:58.12
the welcoming
nature of the US society.
00:12:58.15\00:13:03.13
It's ironic that
the US Government
00:13:03.16\00:13:05.08
went to war in Iraq
but even in this late day,
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.69
I don't believe
the American society
00:13:07.72\00:13:09.63
has deep negativity toward Iraq.
00:13:09.66\00:13:12.59
I think you're
absolutely right, Lincoln,
00:13:12.62\00:13:14.47
that the American
public isn't afraid
00:13:14.50\00:13:17.56
of having Iraqi
refugees come here.
00:13:17.59\00:13:19.59
The problem
especially Christians of course.
00:13:19.62\00:13:21.76
The problem is that our
policies are not enabling
00:13:21.79\00:13:25.13
the people that
are really suffering
00:13:25.16\00:13:26.74
to come and seek refuge
00:13:26.77\00:13:28.05
in the United
States which is really--
00:13:28.08\00:13:29.91
Absolutely, we
need to make that happen
00:13:29.94\00:13:32.49
and help these people.
00:13:32.52\00:13:33.59
We'll be back after a
short break, stay with us.
00:13:33.62\00:13:37.06