Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Tina Ramirez,
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we were getting into
some of the intricacies
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of the healthcare
mandate debate that Becket Fund
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really took a lead
role in challenging that.
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And I think you've done a
real service to our viewers
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to get into those details.
There are very few people
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have explained I
think as well as you gave.
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So where is this going though?
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Where is it right
now for that matter?
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Is it, it still at the stand
off or there's some positive.
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Yeah, that's a good question.
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I think it's important
for our viewers to understand
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this didn't just
arise out of nowhere.
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I mean there is a long
process that led up to this.
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That many people
were aware of the problems
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that were going to be
inherit in the healthcare bill.
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They had warned about it.
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And even several
years prior to it,
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the Obama
administration had been
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putting pressure on
one of our first clients
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which was Belmont Abbey
College, a college found
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by a group of Benedictine.
I believe Benedictine Monks,
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And so they had been
trying to make sure that their
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healthcare plan didn't include
contraceptive and abortifacient
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drugs or being harassed pretty
much by the EEOC over this.
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And so they were the first
client because they knew it,
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you know, it's
just a matter of time.
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And so we've had many clients
as I mentioned since then
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and other law firms
are taking clients as well.
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But where it stands right now
is that many of the nonprofit
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cases are being on-placed
on hold for the most part
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until the government issues
its final rule essentially
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to explain and this
is very complicated.
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Yeah, exactly.
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There are things they did learn.
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And as I
remember they even changed
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the little of the
application and so.
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Well, so they just received
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in April over
200,00 additional comments
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for a new rule
that they're proposing
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which was required by
a case back in December
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in the DC Circuit Court.
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where Wheaton College,
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prominent evangelical college,
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the Catholic
University of America,
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Belmont Abbey College
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were in court
trying to get an exemption.
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And the DC
Circuit Court put the onus
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on the Obama administration
to issue a rule that basically
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fix the problem
for these colleges.
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And so this new rule
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that 200,000 people have
commented on in early April.
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Basically we'll find
out what the government
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is gonna do about it.
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Probably, by August is my guess.
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But that will determine for us
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where those
nonprofit cases stand.
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Then, until then most of
the courts really don't know.
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They're just, their decisions
have all been kind of vague.
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None of them have
been based on their merits.
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Now I think that's an important
point for many viewers to
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understand that they're
all just really being on
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procedural issues until
the Obama administration
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clarifies its position.
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And of course I
think as a whole,
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the country seems to me
that US doesn't really know
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where is this whole
healthcare thing is going.
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It's a grand experiment, is it?
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Yeah, the
whole-Well, and I can't speak
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the whole part of it
but- Isn't it Australian-
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Australians are
complainers I think or maybe
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not complainers but
they're revolutionaries
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and they had a
healthcare system,
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universal healthcare system
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that was started
about 30 some years ago
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And it seems to work and
as I look around the world,
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most western democracies
have universal coverage
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except the US.
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So I think there's a crying need
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for it but what
nobody needs is a government
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that's telling
you what to do. Right.
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And I think that's
the weakness of this.
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The government's too much in it.
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Like the one in Australia,
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I don't know
about Canada or England
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but the one in Australia.
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The government is requiring
everyone to be funding a program
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but once its up
and running you deal
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where the
doctorate is transparent.
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You don't really
want the government
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whether it's in
the sensitivity on
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contraception and
so on but on anything.
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Why would you want
the government making a
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decision as the healthcare
providers do, it's true
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But make a decision
whether you should be covered,
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how much you pay
here and all the rest.
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I think it's intrusive. Right.
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Even if it doesn't narrowly
effectreligious liberty always.
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And the Becket Fund
doesn't take a position
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on universal healthcare
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and what it
should or shouldn't be.
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Our main concern is that
whether you have or you don't,
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people should have
religious exemptions.
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And I think there are
four main points really that
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people should be aware of here.
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One is that this is
just a manufacture problem.
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Contraceptives
and abortifiacenits
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and the rest of it,
nobody is trying to stop anyone
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from accessing those.
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And we don't really
have a position on this.
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Well, we do have position
on is the conscientious right
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of individual
Americans to abstain from having
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to be forced to
provide those against
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what they believe is a sin,
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a core like aspect of
their religious faith.
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And so to force
people to sin against God
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is probably one of the
worst things that you can do.
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We'll never force
people go out and kill others
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or they do others that
are forcing them to sin.
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And it's a same thing that
you have a Sabbath day observers
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or anything else.
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There is a
conscientious objection
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that's ingrained in our--
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the fabric of our society
in our history and so really
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this is just a
manufacture problem.
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And this is a variation
on a thing we've seen before.
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Several years
ago, the pharmacists
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were objected to
filling certain prescriptions.
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Well, this is still an ongoing
problem and we're involved
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in a case in Washington
related to that as well.
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I know, I know.
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They can learn more
about it on our website.
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You're right, I never
felt that it was settled fully
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but it's been-it's
been debated and legal work
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on it done for many years,
well, before the healthcare
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mandate of the
Roman Catholic Church.
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You mentioned it earlier
and I need to reiterate it,
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the Dignitatis Humane statement
that came out of Vatican II.
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I think that's admirable
statement and what I often
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said privately and I
think on this program too.
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The Roman Catholic
Church at the moment
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is speaking very well on
many religious liberty issues.
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Of necessity I think
because in many countries
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and as you will
know other than the US,
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they are persecuted.
I mean there's a strong
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persecution
against all Christians
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particularly Roman
Catholics around the world.
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But I think the key to
how that particular church
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and as many churches involved,
speaks to religious liberty
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when-if they keep
to that statement.
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That it's such a
pivotal statement.
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And yet as I look within
the Roman Catholic community
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and there's some
disagreement about Vatican II
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and whether they should stay
the course and you were debating
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not too long ago
at Catholic University
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where Cardinal Dolan got
up gave a wonderful speech.
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And he sort of interrupted
it and eluded the Vatican II.
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So I could tell that
Vatican II is central to this.
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And of course, if you understand
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the dignity of the
human being, religious liberty
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takes on a transcendental
importance, isn't it.
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Yeah, it is important
for people to realize that
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what is that stake is, whether
you will be free to express
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your beliefs in
public and in private.
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And really that's
essentially what the-
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what the healthcare
mandate is all about.
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Is do you have a
right to engage in business
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to go to a Christian college
to really live out your faith
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in public or are you
forced to keep it in the closet,
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if it contradicts some
government imposed mandate
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on what they think you should
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or shouldn't be doing. Yeah.
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And so the clients that we have,
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none of them are seeking
anything, you know, abnormal.
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They're seeking
what the constitution
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has always protected.
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And I think that it's important
for people to recognize
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that this is really
a manufactured problem,
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that it's a new
problem that the government
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has it created that
never existed before.
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There's always been
exemptions for people
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to conscientiously
object and to use,
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to integrate their
faith into their schooling,
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into their business and
to everything that they do.
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It's just whether
the government is going
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to force religious
people to do something
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that violates their
conscience. At the same time
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that they're
allowing millions of other
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Americans to be exempt. Yeah.
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And so it's
really the government
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bullying religious people.
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Or we can hope it
doesn't turn into that
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whether they had
that underlying intent.
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But it is, it's
already happened.
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You and I probably
don't know. I can see evidence
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that they don't
want- they don't have
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great stomach for this fight.
00:08:20.35\00:08:21.52
good to me that
it will be resolved
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in everybody's favor.
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I don't know. I
think so far the government
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has pretty much stuck its head--
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Do you think
they've dug their heads?
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Oh, they've dug
their heads in it.
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Well, is it heels
or head, I don't of it?
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Oh, they've dug
their head in the sand,
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they have dug their heels in.
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And I mean what they're doing
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right now is they're continuing
all of these different
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challenges and fighting
for an extreme position.
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And this is nothing new,
we saw that the government
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taking extreme
position in Hosanna-Tabor case.
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And I'm glad you
brought that up. Yeah.
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This was a case that the Becket
Foundation was involved in.
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I hadn't really remembered that
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until I was reviewing
something this morning.
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But that's a pivotal
case, isn't it? Right.
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And it was determined
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very favorably to religious
freedom and church operation.
00:09:02.09\00:09:05.39
Yeah, so the Hosanna-Tabor
case involved a Lutheran school
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and whether that school
was able to fire a teacher
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because she had
violated the churches teachings.
00:09:13.60\00:09:16.19
And so the
teacher sued the school
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and that the case went all
the way to the Supreme Court
00:09:18.84\00:09:20.82
and last year the Becket
Fund won 2011 represented
00:09:20.85\00:09:24.93
the case before
the Supreme Court
00:09:24.96\00:09:26.48
and in I believe February of
last year, January, February.
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The Supreme Court issued
the decision 9-0 in our favor,
00:09:30.73\00:09:34.00
saying that the government's
position which argued that
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religious
organizations are no different
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than a labor
union or an outs club
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and they have no specific
rights or special rights
00:09:41.71\00:09:43.73
as a religious organization.
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Despite everything in the
constitution it says otherwise
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and that's been protected
throughout our history.
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The Supreme Court said
that's absolutely absurd.
00:09:50.71\00:09:53.73
In fact in the case
that they were arguing
00:09:53.76\00:09:56.91
several of the justices
said really that's outrageous.
00:09:56.94\00:10:01.38
I mean in the
midst of the questioning
00:10:01.41\00:10:02.64
because they just
thought, well, this is such an
00:10:02.67\00:10:04.56
extreme position and so
that's why I mean you rarely get
00:10:04.59\00:10:07.29
a 9-0 decision but we did and-
00:10:07.32\00:10:09.46
So we think affirmation
of the right of church
00:10:09.49\00:10:11.71
is to administer their own
church...actual church operation
00:10:11.74\00:10:16.34
and deal with the administrant.
00:10:16.37\00:10:17.40
The autonomy of churches.
00:10:17.43\00:10:18.46
And what- we're running of time
00:10:18.49\00:10:20.60
but what I just want
to make a quick allusion.
00:10:20.63\00:10:22.22
It seems to be in a
curious way-its back to
00:10:22.25\00:10:24.74
the original story of
Thomas Becket and Henry II.
00:10:24.77\00:10:27.69
It's whether the church
controls it sown destiny
00:10:27.72\00:10:30.10
or whether the state is going
to administer their business.
00:10:30.13\00:10:34.18
Right, no,
absolutely I think that's
00:10:34.21\00:10:36.26
whether it's Hosanna-Tabor or
00:10:36.29\00:10:37.95
and hiring rates
of ministers or- Yeah.
00:10:37.98\00:10:40.20
Or in the healthcare mandate,
00:10:40.23\00:10:41.26
what we do see is the government
trying to interfere in-
00:10:41.29\00:10:44.00
Very often, very often.
00:10:44.03\00:10:45.06
In individual lives
and the churches life
00:10:45.09\00:10:47.10
of what faith
should or shouldn't be.
00:10:47.13\00:10:50.66
What I'd mentioned was
that basically there are
00:10:50.69\00:10:52.84
four major issues
with healthcare mandate.
00:10:52.87\00:10:55.23
of them is that it's
a manufacture problem.
00:10:55.26\00:10:57.42
I think it's important
for people to recognize
00:10:57.45\00:10:59.12
that the contraceptives
are widely available
00:10:59.15\00:11:03.12
and nobody is trying to stop
them from having access to them.
00:11:03.15\00:11:06.00
And then the second
thing I mentioned is
00:11:06.03\00:11:07.29
I think it's clear
that the government
00:11:07.32\00:11:08.47
is bullying religious people.
00:11:08.50\00:11:09.71
When you look at
the Hobby Lobby case
00:11:09.74\00:11:11.09
for instance.
00:11:11.12\00:11:12.32
It's clear that the
government is forcing a business
00:11:12.35\00:11:15.28
to violate its conscience
since not act as though it has.
00:11:15.31\00:11:19.40
It has a religious reason
for acting as though it does.
00:11:19.43\00:11:23.60
Religious liberty has
always been very important
00:11:23.63\00:11:26.36
for Seventh-day Adventists.
00:11:26.39\00:11:27.64
It's important for
historical reasons.
00:11:27.67\00:11:30.12
It's important because of
our prophetic understanding
00:11:30.15\00:11:34.39
of what we know
what one day happened
00:11:34.42\00:11:36.22
even perhaps in
the United States.
00:11:36.25\00:11:38.60
Religious liberty in the
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:11:38.63\00:11:41.39
is what gave rise
to Liberty Magazine
00:11:41.42\00:11:43.23
which I edit.
00:11:43.26\00:11:44.29
Being published
now for 107 years.
00:11:44.32\00:11:47.19
But it is worth remembering
and we must remind ourselves
00:11:47.22\00:11:51.76
that there are many players
00:11:51.79\00:11:54.18
in the defense of
religious liberty.
00:11:54.21\00:11:56.39
It is not just the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
00:11:56.42\00:11:58.84
many churches,
many organizations,
00:11:58.87\00:12:01.51
many funds, many foundations,
00:12:01.54\00:12:04.40
many legal firms,
have devoted much time,
00:12:04.43\00:12:07.19
much effort and are
very committed to defending
00:12:07.22\00:12:10.15
religious liberty of
course in the United States
00:12:10.18\00:12:12.83
but even in
some other countries.
00:12:12.86\00:12:15.21
Today we've had a
discussion on this program
00:12:15.24\00:12:18.49
on the Becket Fund and
the role that it's played.
00:12:18.52\00:12:21.97
It's been pivotal
in many decisions.
00:12:22.00\00:12:24.69
Some of which people
might not quite agree on
00:12:24.72\00:12:26.73
but always their
actions as in all of the groups
00:12:26.76\00:12:29.99
that we associated
with have been designed
00:12:30.02\00:12:32.78
to defend religious liberty,
00:12:32.81\00:12:35.40
a principle that
we all must defend.
00:12:35.43\00:12:40.57
For liberty insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:40.60\00:12:44.16