Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
bringing you information,
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news and discussion
about religious liberty events
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in the Untied States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And I have a very special guest
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on this program Tina Ramirez.
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Nice to see you. Welcome, Tina.
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Thank you, Lincoln,
it's nice to be here.
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Now, you've got a very
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unique responsibility
with the Becket Fund.
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You're Director of International
and Government Relations.
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Yes.
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You know, I'm
Seventh-day Adventist,
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and when we have someone
from our world headquarters,
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that's liaison to
congress and I really see you
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functioning the same way
for the Becket Fund, don't you?
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Yeah, well, I have a couple
of differenct hats at Becket.
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That's what we
want to talk about.
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Maybe some of our viewers
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don't really know
about the Becket Fund.
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So could you give a
little capsule introduction
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and we'll talk about it
as we get into the program.
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But maybe just
introduce them to this fund.
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Sure, well the Becket Fund
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has been around
for about 19 yrs.
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And it was founded by a
catholic by name Seamus Hasson.
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And he believed that
religious liberty was something
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not just for
Catholics but for everybody.
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And so he wanted
to start a law firm,
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the first of its kind
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that defended religious liberty
for all people everywhere.
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So not just as an American right
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but as an
international human right.
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And that's why. Excuse me-
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that's why
you're in this program.
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This program is
about religious liberty.
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And anybody that's
for religious liberty,
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I'm for them and we're
fellow-- fellow battleist
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because not everybody
understands religious liberty.
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You and I were talking
on the way to this program
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that the young
people, particularly sometimes
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don't quite see the
need for defending this,
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this very real
and necessary right.
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Yeah, the Barner Group came
out with the study recently that
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of all the different generations
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young people
are the least likely
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to care about religious liberty.
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So it's
definitely something I'm glad
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to be here to talk to you
about and to share with you.
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We'll talk about
that another time. Yeah.
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It demands a
whole program. Yeah.
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That so the Becket Fund really
is an association of lawyers
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dedicated toward
religious freedom.
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Yeah, and I represent the non
legal staff at the Becket Fund.
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So my work really isn't involved
in the government relations
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side of things
and in international.
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And we can maybe talk about
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the
international side a bit later.
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But the Becket Fund was started
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based on the
idea of Thomas Becket
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really who was martyred
in Canterbury Cathedral.
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And was
standing up for his faith
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against the king and
attorney of the king.
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And what we do is we
defend people around the world
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and throughout the United States
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and their right to stand up
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for their most
foundational human right
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which is religious freedom,
their freedom to worship
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and to express
their faith in public.
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So it was just
seen that Thomas Becket
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was sort of an
interesting story that--
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He is kind of the
inspiration, yeah.
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'Cause I always wondered was--
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you know was this something
integral to that history
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or just an illusion to it.
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Well, I think it was--
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I think it was Seamus'
faith that inspired us.
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And Dignitatis
Humanae was also very
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inspirational document
which is the Catholics,
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Catholic churches
doctrine on religious freedom.
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That came out of
the, out of Vatican II.
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And I had a program here before
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about the
significance of Vatican II.
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Yeah, and it's been
enormously effective
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in the whole international
human rights in religious arena
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on the
philosophy of where do you,
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where did these rights
come from and the fact that
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there is something
innate in every human being
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that desires to search for
spiritual things and for God.
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And so that's the
freedom that we defend.
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Absolutely, the
United States Constitution
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or at least the
Declaration of Independence too.
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Sort of recognizes this innate
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right of people
as created beings.
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So yes, the Becket
Fund over its 19 yrs
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has had a fascinating history
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dealing with
the number of cases.
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We like to say we've gone,
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we've protected
everybody from A to Z
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from Anglicans to
Zoroastrians and all in between.
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So Sikhs,
Muslims, Baha'i, Buddhists,
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I mean just about everybody.
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And the reason that
we do that is because
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if you want to
defend the First Amendment,
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you can just defend it
for a particular community.
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You have to
defend it for everyone
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so that the law itself remains
as strong as it possibly can.
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And that's
really the core belief
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that we have at the Becket Fund.
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Yeah, and thank you for
explaining that way because
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I think I've tried to explain
that on this program before
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even within our own church
as a Seventh-day Adventist.
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Some of our
members sometimes wonder
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why we are
defending other religions.
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Why we work with some
pretty disparate groups.
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But once you get into the
religious liberty construct,
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you realize that it's either
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valid for everyone
or everyone is at risk.
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If one single
group is disadvantaged.
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And we had our liberty dinner
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that you've
attended a couple of time.
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Yeah, I've
attended number of times,
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this time I was traveling
in Africa, so I was unable to.
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Yeah, so, it was
just a few days ago
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with the Canadian
Embassy for the second time.
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And we were able
to feature and welcome
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the new Canadian ambassador
for religious freedom.
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Yeah, this is very exciting that
they started this new position.
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But what I said when I got
up and welcome people there
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because liberty was the original
reason for having the dinner.
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And it's cosponsored with the
couple of other church entities.
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But I welcome
people and I pointed out
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that we're all,
we were all there
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because we believed
in religious liberty.
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But just because
we're there, it doesn't mean
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we believe everything in common.
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Right, yeah. This is--
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But in common we have this
commitment to religious liberty
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and if you're for religious
liberty, we're with you.
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And to me that's not
a disturbing realization
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that actually
makes us better allies.
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Because if you have
to agree on everything
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before someone will cooperate,
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especially when
you're dealing with religion,
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it's almost an impossibility.
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You know the ecumenical movement
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I think stumbled
over this many times.
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Yeah, and I think that
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it's important for
people to understand that
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religious freedom isn't just
something for religious people.
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That's a human
right for everybody
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regardless of whether you have
the religious tradition or not.
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Because
essentially what it does,
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is it protects your
right to search for truth
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and meaning and
purpose and to transcend it
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in whatever way that you find.
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And gives you
the right to reject.
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Yes. Any version of that, yeah.
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Exactly, so it protects the
freedom to not have a faith.
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Even at least
within international law.
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You know more I
think more a secular people
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need to understand that
I mean as a person of faith
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you don't want them
to make that choice.
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Probably it's not in their
best interest for a moment,
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point of view of a Christian
but they need to be allowed to.
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And way too many
countries in the world,
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I know many that you've
visited have trouble with that.
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They don't want their
citizens to up that of
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sometimes just
the one state religion
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or they don't want
them to be seen as secular.
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Well, there is definitely
a wide spectrum of issues
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that we can discuss
here from the most extreme
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in other countries where people
have absolutely no freedom
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and they're just
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their faith is a daily life
and death risk that they take.
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And then in the United
States a number of issues that
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you know while they might
seems silly to some people
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are really at
the core of whether
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individuals have a
conscientious objection
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and can live out their faith.
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Not just in
private but in public
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and I think that's
really what the main issue is
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here right now in our country.
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Well, let's discuss what-- Sure.
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That I need your explanation.
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I've spoken about out
it before on this program
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from another point of
view, the healthcare mandate.
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In the
contraception element of that
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in the Catholic
Church in particular.
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Roman Catholic Church
made a big public objection.
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And I have got to admit that
in liberty and on this program
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I've made much of
the complicating factor
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of taking state aid
and Catholic hospitals
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are one hardly unique on that.
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But I thought that
muddy the waters a bit.
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But lets talk about what I know
is in your interest on this.
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What--how would you describe
the underlying compromise
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that they were objecting to,
that was been pushed on them?
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What was the treat to
their faith projection?
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So essentially I
mean this is a big topic.
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So the Becket Fund
took the first five cases
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related to the
healthcare mandate
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on requiring
preventative services
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that include
contraceptive drugs,
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abortifacients and
also the counseling
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and teaching of
the use of those drugs.
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So not just the actual
drugs but the teaching of it
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which as you can imagine
would not go over so well
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in church on Sunday and
then in a Catholic school
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or a Christian
college on Monday.
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So there's very clear violation
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of conscience and faith
involved in this mandate
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but I think that going
back to what you've just said,
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you've mentioned that the
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something about
tell me what you do.
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Taking money. Yeah, yeah.
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Well, if we can talk more
on that but I'm happy too.
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No, I'll talk broadly
but-- I do think--and I well
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I want to
rephrase it in the way that
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I'm not totally dismissive
by any means of a very real
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sense by people of
faith and in this case
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Roman Catholics that
are mandate like this could
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put them in an awkward
position where they feel like
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they're
compromising their principles.
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Well, so the interesting
thing about the mandate
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is that it affects
everyone regardless
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of whether you take
government funds or you don't.
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And so I just
figured we probably should
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just throw out that
fallacy first because
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it's often perceived or
put forward in the media
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that while they
take government funds,
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they should
automatically be forced to
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the compliant with this mandate.
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But the fact is like
many colleges and universities
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that are not publicly
funded at all are in fact,
00:10:01.72\00:10:05.74
or not just colleges
and universities brother
00:10:05.77\00:10:07.53
non profits or for
profits are effected as well,
00:10:07.56\00:10:10.06
so there really
isn't any exemption
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for people of conscience
throughout the mandate.
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I guess it's probably better
to give a little bit background
00:10:14.94\00:10:17.39
so-- Yeah, go ahead.
So if you, you was there
00:10:17.42\00:10:20.26
obviously when the
healthcare mandate was passed
00:10:20.29\00:10:22.57
it was the intention of Congress
that it would not include
00:10:22.60\00:10:25.41
abortion or
abortion inducing type drugs.
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That was something
about Stupak had intended
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as the main
democrat that ended up
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pretty much casting
loan vote that moved,
00:10:33.88\00:10:36.19
that shifted the balance in
the house of representatives
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that enabled the
bill to go forward.
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Following that what happened is
you had a number of regulations
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in this 2,000
plus paged document.
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I've never--I've never
finished reading it though.
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But anyway I'll do it
amidst having read it though.
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Yeah, I don't
know if we ever will.
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I mean I don't even know
if Nancy Pelosi has still
00:10:55.53\00:10:57.29
read it yet but needless to say
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with all of those with the
huge document that was created
00:11:00.12\00:11:05.04
there were a number of
regulations that needed to be
00:11:05.07\00:11:08.24
implemented by the government
in order to enforce the bill.
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And so over last few years
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that's what we have been seeing.
00:11:13.61\00:11:14.93
One of the first regulations
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was this regulation on
women's preventive services.
00:11:16.68\00:11:19.77
And so within that you
had a number of things like
00:11:19.80\00:11:22.40
mammograms and
breastfeeding support
00:11:22.43\00:11:25.78
and a number of just general
things that nobody objects to.
00:11:25.81\00:11:30.13
Of the 10
preventive services for women,
00:11:30.16\00:11:32.72
only one was objectionable
00:11:32.75\00:11:34.47
to the Becket Funds
claims and to many other claims.
00:11:34.50\00:11:37.34
Right now I
believe there's 58 cases
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with over a 190 plaintiffs.
00:11:39.20\00:11:41.43
So this makes it
one of the largest
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religious liberty
cases in US history.
00:11:43.72\00:11:46.08
I mean it's massive
00:11:46.11\00:11:47.14
I don't know if we've
ever seen anything like this.
00:11:47.17\00:11:48.82
So it's a really--
it's not just something
00:11:48.85\00:11:51.38
that people should
gloss over in the media
00:11:51.41\00:11:53.21
or think that as people
of faith there's nothing
00:11:53.24\00:11:56.74
here that there's no
religious liberty threat.
00:11:56.77\00:11:58.32
There really is something
serious involved in this
00:11:58.35\00:12:00.93
and it really gets the
core of conscientious objection.
00:12:00.96\00:12:03.64
So what the
government had to do then
00:12:03.67\00:12:06.01
was create a new regulation.
00:12:06.04\00:12:08.16
They suggested that
they they would be including
00:12:08.19\00:12:12.86
contraceptive and abortifacient
drugs in that new regulation.
00:12:12.89\00:12:17.91
Many people objected,
00:12:17.94\00:12:19.07
they then send it to
the institute on medicine
00:12:19.10\00:12:23.10
and the institute of
medicine was supposed to create
00:12:23.13\00:12:26.01
what its recommendation,
what the preventive services
00:12:26.04\00:12:29.17
should include and I
mentioned that there are 10.
00:12:29.20\00:12:31.34
It then listed the 10
00:12:31.37\00:12:32.79
which included contraceptive
abortifacient drugs.
00:12:32.82\00:12:35.08
There then was a comment period
that the government issued
00:12:35.11\00:12:38.07
and in that comment period they
had about a 100,000 responses
00:12:38.10\00:12:42.99
from Catholic as well as
many other faith communities
00:12:43.02\00:12:46.70
objecting to this one component.
00:12:46.73\00:12:48.99
And really the issue is
whether that one component
00:12:49.02\00:12:53.01
which is
preventative services involved
00:12:53.04\00:12:54.87
in contraceptive
abortifacient drugs counseling
00:12:54.90\00:12:57.69
is going to be exempted
by the government or not.
00:12:57.72\00:13:00.50
And since then
what we've seen is that
00:13:00.53\00:13:03.02
the government is
kind of pushed back
00:13:03.05\00:13:04.23
and not allow religious
people to have that objection.
00:13:04.26\00:13:06.60
Yeah, now there's no question
00:13:06.63\00:13:08.53
there's a bit of battle between
church and state on this.
00:13:08.56\00:13:11.30
And peoples' sensibilities
are being threatened.
00:13:11.33\00:13:15.25
This is a complicated issue
00:13:15.28\00:13:17.27
and we want you to
comeback after a short break.
00:13:17.30\00:13:19.82
And we continue this discussion
on the healthcare mandate
00:13:19.85\00:13:23.22
and of course, the Becket
Fund and their involvement.
00:13:23.25\00:13:26.16