Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000210B
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00:06 Welcome back.
00:08 Before the break with Todd McFarland, 00:10 we were talking about prisoner's rights. 00:12 Right. Well, let's go on to some other captives. 00:15 Captives of honor and service in the US at the moment 00:19 it's hard to miss the US military, 00:22 especially you and I and others that travel a lot. 00:24 Every airport you'll see the men 00:27 in uniform and usually they-- 00:28 And women. It's true, I'm sorry. 00:31 They're usually loading on first that they're very visible. 00:36 And as our previous president was want to say, 00:39 we are a nation at war, different sort of war. 00:43 But when we talk about religious liberty, 00:44 I think things get a little bit vague. 00:48 You don't remember the Vietnam War. 00:49 I do not remember the Vietnam War, I was-- 00:52 In private conversation 00:54 you've put the knife into me a few times though 00:56 I'm little bit older than you. Well, you know. 00:58 But I do remember Vietnam very well. 00:59 I remember by number 243. 01:02 That's a good number. Yeah. 01:03 Cause we were under the draft then 01:05 and it was a different dynamic, 01:07 people going into the military 01:09 since it was more than regular citizenry 01:11 and you've kept some of your rights. 01:14 More of your rights I think than now. 01:16 There was religious accommodation 01:17 for Seventh-day Adventists 01:19 and others who were non combatants. 01:20 Right. And for the Sabbath even. 01:25 That's a little different today, isn't it? 01:27 Have you picked up on any legal problems 01:29 with Adventists and others in the military? 01:31 We have certainly had problems 01:33 with the Adventist Church members in the military. 01:34 I mean, a few years ago 01:35 we had a very famous case of John Klinkowitz, 01:38 who had problems actually was thrown in the brig 01:40 for refusing to bear arms. 01:42 When the military, the year I was born 01:44 which I won't say went to an all volunteer force 01:48 that really changed the dynamic. 01:49 Before when you are conscripting people in, 01:51 there was things like non-combatantcy and, 01:53 you know, serving in a medical profession 01:55 in a non-combat role. 01:56 Now in an all volunteer force 01:59 that provision doesn't really exist anymore. 02:02 Right. It--there is a very, very narrow permission 02:05 for non-combatants for a limited period of time 02:07 but it's because the people have joined voluntarily, 02:10 really the only non-combatants in the military 02:12 now are-- are pastors or chaplains. 02:16 Even the physicians, 02:17 the physicians are issued used to side arms. 02:19 You know, and so the issue we have with people, 02:21 you know, joining makes it 02:23 to be less problems quite frankly. 02:25 But we do have had that issues 02:26 and we try to support our church members 02:29 who are in the military in the Adventist churches 02:31 positions they support people in all three positions 02:33 which is for pacifiers, 02:35 non-combatancy and full military service. 02:39 You know, as Christians we would be supportive 02:43 of all people of good will, 02:45 so its not that we would never oppose 02:47 even an Adventist young person 02:48 that goes into the military and bear arms 02:51 and even largely ignores their Sabbath commitment. 02:56 But it's still they might be in a position 02:59 that's inconsistent with the church stance 03:01 and I think more and more, this is the case. 03:04 The Adventist church went to great lengths 03:08 during the Vietnam War to cove out 03:10 in accommodation for non combatancy. 03:13 We defended I know--through the military legal system 03:18 the right of soldiers with Sabbath issues 03:20 and we've doing a little bit of that now. 03:22 But I think my take away on this is I think our God 03:27 is down because most people don't realize the shift 03:30 that you say between the conscription army 03:33 and the volunteer and the loss of rights 03:36 for one of the better term in this area. 03:38 Well, people will have rights they have to-- 03:40 to have rights they have to want to, 03:42 you got to understand, the people-- 03:43 Yes, you come to where I'm heading on this. 03:45 The people are joining the military, you know, are-- 03:47 It's not a concern so much-- 03:48 Are 18 to 19 year old, these people, 03:50 who maybe of varying levels of strength within the church 03:53 and, you know, the reality 03:55 is we do not get a lot of phone calls from people 03:58 who are voluntarily joining the US military 04:00 asking for Sabbath accommodation help, 04:02 that's because they know what they are signing up for. 04:04 Now you or I might agree or disagree with their decision 04:07 but, you know, it's not our place to go in 04:09 and sort of force people to try to keep the Sabbath. 04:11 Sabbath is the place of this program 04:15 I think to help raise an awareness 04:16 and that's what I am trying to do. 04:17 And it is true for an Adventist-- 04:18 This is not a legal question 04:19 so much as it is an attitudinal one. 04:21 For an Adventist joining the military, 04:23 the Sabbath issue is going to be the most difficult. 04:26 It is going to be in most regards virtually impossible 04:29 to completely keep the Sabbath in a military setting. 04:32 Now some people had luck and been able to be, 04:34 you know, successful and military 04:36 is a large complex organizations, 04:38 so you can't make, you know, 04:39 complete generalizations but, 04:41 you know, for a young person 04:42 thinking about joining the military 04:44 even if you are okay with bearing arms, 04:46 which is not the preferred Adventist stance 04:48 but its consistent, its not a basis you know, for churches-- 04:50 No, it's not an absolute prohibition. 04:52 But the Sabbath is gonna be problem. 04:53 It's a matter of personal conviction. 04:55 The church is playing enough 04:56 that it recommends non combatancy. 04:58 In the real--and outside it should be interesting. 05:00 Outside the United States, non combatancy 05:03 is much more the standard. 05:04 In other words, the idea of serving in the military 05:06 formost Adventists outside of the United States 05:09 is very-- why would you do that? 05:12 And many Adventists when they come to the US 05:14 are surprised about the level of military situation. 05:16 Well, the difference is there, 05:18 there are other countries like the US but the US-- 05:21 and sometimes in a very positive way has rolled together 05:25 what it is to be an America and to have Christian faith. 05:30 You know, in a wrong way, 05:31 it can become sort of, you know, 05:33 militant secular nation but there's a good side to it. 05:37 But most countries don't have that, 05:39 that spin and I think more biblical Christians 05:45 if they are not aware of it, 05:46 they're following the model of the early Christians-- 05:50 I don't know if you know this 05:51 but the early Christian church 05:53 in the 1st century had many military people 05:56 join the Christian church but they always made them-- 05:59 leave the military when they became a Christian. 06:01 So this is certain incompatibility 06:03 between the deep spirituality 06:06 and the other worldliness of Christianity 06:08 or of Christian faith in the military. 06:11 You know, military lifestyles 06:12 which can be very rough and tumble, 06:13 it can be very coarse at times. 06:16 Can be difficult to remain a Christian there. 06:17 There are many good Christians 06:18 serving in the US military and others. 06:20 But you're right it is not-- it is not the natural 06:24 environment for Christian behavior 06:26 that is I think that's absolute statement. 06:28 I have a concern for this 06:30 and it's a little bit even deeper than you might think 06:35 and I don't know what you've heard 06:36 but I've had discussions 06:37 and I found just get one of a case without names or place 06:43 but there was a case of a boarding party 06:45 in the Persian Gulf, 06:47 the officers bring short supplies, 06:49 so the chaplain headed 06:50 the boarding party as the commanding officer. 06:52 So, you know, if we don't watch it in the military 06:55 the separation of the church and state 06:57 which is not very operative anyhow, 06:59 they became spiritual enablers of military action. 07:03 And it goes to the Middle Ages with the Roman Catholic Church 07:05 and the secular pass then that was accepted. 07:09 Well, you know, one particular example I mean, 07:11 you know, is we have to be careful 07:14 about doing stuff by antidotes 07:15 but you know, the chaplains are there 07:17 to serve our military members 07:19 in the spiritual and just, you know, life support 07:22 and they perform an important duty. 07:24 And I think it's a wonderful office even though 07:27 it's like the senate and the congressional chaplain. 07:31 James Madison was very unhappy with that 07:33 on his model of separation of church and state, 07:35 but a lot of spiritual good comes from that chaplain there. 07:38 And I think in the military same thing, the spiritual needs. 07:41 And the reality is in the military, 07:42 you know, people often ask, 07:44 you know, its very interesting that, 07:45 you know, the US military employees, 07:46 I think we have about a hundred 07:48 or so Adventist pastors who come off tax payroll. 07:51 The reason for that of course is 07:52 with out having a chaplain's decor, 07:54 which we've had since George Washington's, 07:56 you know, continental army. 07:57 Yeah, it goes to the very beginning. 07:58 You have no, there is no-- 08:00 there is no spiritual life within the military. 08:03 I mean, if you are on a boat some place 08:04 or you are out in the field 08:05 and would think, there is-- you can't you know, 08:07 I am sorry I'm gonna go to local church now. 08:09 The military has to provide this 08:10 because they have a captive audience 08:12 and so it has raised the lot of questions 08:15 on separation of church and state. 08:16 But again and we talked about 08:18 I think in the earlier show 08:19 you can never have a perfect 08:20 wall of separation of church and state. 08:22 There's always gonna be interaction 08:23 between civil and church society. 08:25 And the military is just one example. 08:27 Now I think it would be a foolish person 08:28 that would argue getting rid of military chaplains. 08:31 But the fact that they are there 08:33 and they thoroughly embedded, 08:35 it's a little bit like the journalist, 08:36 you know, journalist always depended on the leavings 08:40 of the military to get used but when they're embedded, 08:42 the dynamic changes in-- 08:44 We're not embedded, 08:45 they are part of the military core. 08:46 I mean, they are military officers-- 08:48 No, I know they are, 08:49 I'm talking about the journalists. 08:50 Once they went from basically camp followers 08:54 to get the news to being embedded, 08:56 there was the--often the news was more directed. 09:01 And we know that with chaplaincy that happens a bit. 09:03 You know, we've had cases of not Adventist chaplains 09:08 and we should say that these Adventist chaplains 09:10 they are Seventh-day Adventists 09:11 with accreditation from the church 09:13 but they are not employed by the church, 09:14 they are an individual-- 09:16 They receive the credentials from the church 09:18 and ecclesiastical endorsements 09:20 so they are Adventists pastors. 09:22 But they are employed by the government by the military. 09:23 No, they are on the military payroll. 09:25 But they are a Seventh-day Adventist pastor. 09:27 There's no question that chaplains are doing 09:29 a wonderful service for many hundreds of thousands of men 09:33 in the military all over the world who-- 09:35 at this moment of crisis even though 09:37 they signed up for, they are under great stress, 09:39 they are in situations that, 09:41 you know, it give them post traumatic stress syndrome, 09:43 I mean its horrendous. 09:44 So they need spiritual help then. 09:47 You know, I don't question that. 09:49 I just think we need to pray in ways 09:52 that we're able to through religious liberty 09:54 and may be legal council. 09:57 Remind the church and these young men 10:00 that there are certain standards 10:02 that they may have accepted to some point, 10:04 they have forgotten or not being reminded of 10:06 as they go into the military. 10:08 And, you know, compromise can creep. 10:10 And when I see the difference between World War II 10:13 and some of the non-combatants, 10:16 what was that Seventh day Adventist-- 10:19 Desmond Doss Desmond Doss. 10:20 Right. Incredible story under fire with no weapon rescued-- 10:25 I think about 30 or 40 men 10:27 and of course they won the battle. 10:30 You know, we're down to where I remember 10:32 I had a S.E.5a-pilot on this program. 10:36 Because we featured him in Liberty, 10:38 very admirable person you know, 10:39 I admired his service. 10:41 But you know, he was nearly court marshaled 10:43 for an issue on Sabbath. 10:46 But in on the camera he said, 10:48 while he wouldn't do training on Sabbath 10:49 but he'd fly on mission on Sabbath. 10:51 And, you know, that's up to his conscience 10:53 but that's shift from our old position. 10:56 I think this demonstrates perfectly what happens 10:58 when you find yourself in a secular society performing, 11:02 you know, necessary work, 11:03 I mean, war fighting is a 24 X 7, you know, 11:06 activity but trying to keep religious values 11:08 and we see this in the hospital context, 11:11 in the healthcare context 11:12 where, you know, services have to be continually performed. 11:15 There is a certain parallel between the two, 11:17 you are right and we are changing. 11:19 It is. And you know, 11:20 and I think you are right, you can, 11:23 you know, compromise is easy to make 11:25 and if you're not careful and if we're not careful 11:27 as an Adventist and as Christians, 11:29 you know, making necessary concessions in the sinful world 11:33 we live in can easily turn in to rationalization for anything. 11:37 And as Adventists and as Christians, 11:38 it's our job to pray and to follow God's leading 11:42 and what is necessary to be done of-- 11:44 you know, in this world 11:45 and also respecting God's commands 11:48 when it comes to keeping a Sabbath 11:49 and the rest of His commandments 11:50 whether that be in the prison context 11:52 or the military context. 11:56 There's an old Christian hymn 11:57 that most people know that says, 11:59 "Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war." 12:05 The matter of war and violence 12:06 and conquest is a very problematic 12:10 issue for Christians. 12:12 I believe as Jesus said, our kingdom, 12:16 the kingdom of Christ and of God 12:18 that we belong to is of another world 12:20 that is not here and now. 12:22 And no Christian is called upon to take out violent arms 12:25 against anyone for any reason, 12:27 religious or otherwise. 12:28 But as our guest today did point out 12:31 we live in a real world 12:33 where there are complications 12:35 that we need to accommodate in as best way 12:38 we can without compromising our spiritual commitment. 12:41 We do need to pray for those in our military. 12:45 We don't know all of the reasons 12:46 that they enter the military. 12:48 We do know that they are serving their county 12:51 and as Christians need to serve their Lord. 12:54 And we need to be prisoners of conscience 12:58 and that our conscience guide us 13:01 whether we're literally in prison, 13:04 literally in the sinful world but always living in the spirit. 13:11 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17