Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000210A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you news, views, discussion 00:27 and up-to-date information on religious liberty events 00:31 in the United States and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:37 And my guest on this program is Todd McFarland, 00:40 Associate General Council of the General Conference 00:42 of Seventh-day Adventist and a particular lead person 00:46 on religious liberty cases and concerns. 00:49 And of course you deal with Liberty magazine. 00:51 I brought for it often. 00:53 I am legal council for Liberty 00:54 and defend you on a regular basis now. 00:57 And I defend you on the schedule. Yes. 01:01 Now, little inside joking but he is on our Liberty board 01:04 and we really appreciate what you do. 01:07 I want to talk about some issues 01:08 that are of concern to me and we will see where it goes. 01:15 Well before I started editing Liberty magazine 01:17 on other periodical, I used to get letters from prison. 01:21 Different prisoners write to me 01:24 and you know, I did not empathize 01:26 but I sympathize with those men cut off, 01:29 their own problem you know, presume. 01:32 Still they are isolated, 01:33 they've lost many of the civil liberties 01:36 that we assume, you know, we just assume we have them 01:41 and here desperate people sort of reaching out 01:43 wanting religious liberty when they write to Liberty magazine. 01:47 And so I am very concern for the rights 01:50 to have religious accommodation 01:53 and you know to be able to interact on a spiritual level 01:58 as well as some civil liberties. 02:01 I don't want them out on the street. 02:03 And I just want to know your thoughts on it. 02:06 Where are we on the religious liberty rights of prisoners? 02:09 Well, the Adventist church has taken cases 02:12 with Adventists in prison. 02:14 These are about people who were Adventists before 02:16 and people who were converted while in prison 02:18 and defended their rights. 02:20 The usually found the two categories. 02:21 One, diet, so they believe to have a vegetarian 02:25 or, you know, meal or one without meat, 02:27 at least not unclean meat. 02:28 And then the second is on Sabbath issue. 02:30 So you know not been required to do prison work on Sabbath. 02:33 Those are the two categories. 02:35 There's a third category I know and I-- 02:38 you probably included or just don't want to differentiate 02:41 but I know that there's an issue with them 02:43 getting religious material that they want. 02:46 It's not automatic that they get anything more than-- 02:49 well, even Bibles are not automatic necessarily. 02:52 In seven years I've been doing this, 02:54 we have not had a problem with material. 02:56 We received some scattered reports but you know, 02:59 actual problems that have come on to our desk 03:01 have not included any really religious materials, 03:06 at least in United States. 03:07 Well, I do know that it's very often 03:09 the discretion of the prison chaplain or someone 03:13 and on other odd occasion they have expressed 03:19 a negative comment about, like Liberty magazine 03:22 or some religious materials that the prisoners wants 03:26 and they won't pass it on or won't order it. 03:29 That issue has come up in the past is not been one 03:32 that we have had, you know, 03:34 you hear all these anecdotal issues. 03:35 Well, I get letters from-- Right. 03:37 But when you will actually look into it we had very few. 03:40 The primary problems in prison litigation 03:41 have been diet and then Sabbath issues. 03:45 You know and a lot of people don't believe 03:47 that prisoners should have any right. 03:49 So there's very much a view of you know, not-- 03:54 you know they are in prison, they are there for a good reason 03:56 which is usually true though not universally. 03:59 But you know just because you are in prison, 04:00 it doesn't mean you give up your religious rights. 04:02 It doesn't mean that you should not have the freedom 04:04 within a prison context to follow your faith. 04:07 And doesn't mean you should be required 04:09 to do something that violate your faith as long as they are, 04:11 you know, isn't a good prison reason for it. 04:14 Well, it goes back to a deeper debate within society 04:18 whether they are in prison to deprive them of liberty 04:21 or to inflict punitive punishment upon them. 04:22 Well, yeah, we don't need to get-- 04:24 I mean you know-- But it's true, 04:26 isn't that's probably what's going on? 04:28 No, there is never been at least in United States 04:31 a theory that I mean, when religious rights 04:33 are denied to prisoners, it's not for punitive purposes. 04:36 I mean you would never get away with that. 04:38 But as far as the incarceration in general, 04:40 many people hold that they are there to be punished 04:43 and another view of imprisonment is that the penalty 04:47 is to be deprived of their freedom of-- 04:50 Yeah, but the conflict always comes up 04:54 and the reason the prison always defends 04:56 this is not on any theory of-- 04:59 you know of prisons and correction and so forth. 05:01 It's all has to do with safety and security. 05:03 And that would apply for as there's other contexts 05:06 in which people are incarcerated and in the health context 05:09 which is almost like a prison but they are not-- 05:12 It's certainly against their will. 05:13 But they are no there to be punished. 05:15 And the reality is almost all the same issues 05:17 will come up in non punitive context 05:19 in which you are incarcerated 05:20 in this they were in the punitive. 05:22 So you know, the reality is, you know, Christ says, 05:25 you know, when I was in prison you visited me. 05:26 Well, that means you know, not in prison, 05:29 you know, but you know, innocent you know, 05:31 but it mean you know, know a person 05:32 who did something wrong. 05:33 And you know, and what group needs ministry 05:35 more than incarcerated population so you know, 05:39 we have helped individuals you know, in the prison context 05:42 as far as the work context we had a part of a case 05:44 against the State of Michigan and it's still going on. 05:47 State of Michigan would get you off 05:49 for almost any reason from work 05:51 except for religion and this violate, 05:53 I mean the Federal Department of Bureau of Prisons 05:56 allows people off, you know, from work or duties 05:58 because of religion but Michigan wouldn't 06:01 and it's just one example of the state. 06:02 In my view that was just nothing other than religious anonymous. 06:05 They just didn't want to deal with this. 06:06 They viewed prisoner's religious choices 06:09 had been just trying to gain system's faith, 06:11 it's not worthy of protection 06:12 and so you know we were part of a lawsuit 06:15 against them on that. 06:16 And there's no question that in prisons, 06:19 prisoners use a religious commitment 06:22 as other things to sort of get what they want. 06:24 You know this jail has conversion 06:27 with the certain negative connotation around it. 06:30 And prisons can obviously can and do regulate that issue. 06:34 So you know if a person wants off on Saturday 06:36 and not have to work, you can require them 06:37 to work on Sunday and other days of the week. 06:39 You know, the meals, you know, don't have to be better meals, 06:42 they just have to be ones that don't include, 06:44 you know, meat. 06:45 Dress and garb cases which aren't Adventist cases 06:47 but for other prisoners as you know beards and so forth, 06:50 I mean, again prisons can and do and should regulate this 06:54 but this sort of reflexive, 06:55 you know, to know that often comes 06:57 from corrections officers you know, is problematic. 07:00 Yeah. 07:02 Another aspect of-- I have a lot of thoughts on this 07:05 but we need to discuss it's not in the public view any more 07:10 but I think it's not gone away. 07:12 Going back to then Governor Bush's tenure in Texas, 07:16 it was a trendy sort of a moment to privatize prisons. 07:22 Have corporations or business entities run 07:25 federal state prisons. 07:29 They wanted federal but it was state ones then. 07:32 And the most bizarre cases in my view were Christian, 07:37 not denominations but Christian organizations running prisons, 07:42 treating the prisoners very well. 07:45 There was even an up to out clothes for the prisoners 07:47 but of course this presses beyond 07:50 whether they just require to get it there. 07:52 And the whole prison life involve indoctrination 07:55 in the certain viewpoint. 07:57 If they didn't fit in or they didn't like 07:59 they would be send out to not so pleasant prisons. 08:03 So in essence they could be punished 08:04 for not acceding to a standard religious line of instruction. 08:11 And to me the line there between 08:13 what we used to see in communists, 08:15 there is of indoctrination camps, very thin. 08:19 Even though they probably were morally better off 08:21 for having gone through such a thing 08:24 but someone who has lost their liberties 08:26 now is herded toward enforced instruction. 08:31 I mean, and I am not here to defend those prejudices, 08:33 I think-- No, we are just discussing- 08:34 'cause it's interesting that the dynamic. 08:36 The people who ran those or running those 08:38 and promoted those would I know 08:40 would completely disagree with your characterization. 08:43 They would say that those were voluntary, 08:45 that they-- if they were not part of the program 08:48 they were in different part of the prison 08:49 that wouldn't necessarily be any better or worse than that. 08:52 But there was no courage and these are people 08:53 who wanted to be in Christian environment 08:55 that there was lower instance of violence and crime 08:58 and other things in this particular part 09:00 and it was purely voluntary. 09:01 It was not different than you know, 09:03 people in the free world 09:04 voluntary living in a certain community 09:06 that they could voluntary into that community. 09:08 I mean, there's some lawsuits over that in Iowa in particular 09:10 and there were some establishments 09:11 that cause problems. 09:12 And along many of the concerns that you raised. 09:15 You know, as long as the issue is, 09:17 as long as it's truly voluntary 09:18 which is always hard to say in a prison context, 09:21 you know, because the reality is 09:23 if you have sort of a Christian wing 09:24 and that has less violence on it 09:27 then its going to be attractive 09:29 to even to non-Christians, to everyone. 09:31 And so you know, do you create a situation 09:34 whereby having a less violent part of the prison, 09:37 you know, you are creating a sinning for people. 09:39 These were actually a dedicated prison. Right. 09:42 If they left that prison, it was not that wing 09:45 they would go to another prison. Right. 09:47 It's not quite a clear analogy but it does put me to mind 09:50 a little bit of the dispute in England 09:54 back in the Middle Ages between church courts or civil courts. 09:57 People often would rather be in one than the other. 10:01 And the mater of fact was it skewed justice greatly. 10:04 But it just troubles me in prisons 10:06 where you have lost through your own action usually, 10:10 it's true, I don't dispute that. 10:11 But commit a crime or an offence against the society 10:14 and you are put under the discretion of the government 10:16 and then it can either force or carouse you into a situation 10:22 that can compromise your moral integrity 10:25 where you are being even forced to listen 10:28 to something you don't want to listen to 10:29 is really against the religious liberty principle. 10:31 And these concerns I think is one of the reasons. 10:32 First of all these were limited small programs 10:35 and they've not taken off. No. 10:37 And I think many of the concerns that you raise 10:39 is only the reasons why they didn't really take off, 10:42 you know, it was an experiment, 10:43 it was an attempt and I think the one prison 10:44 that this did happened and since 10:47 you know, ended that program. 10:49 You know, there was many laudable goals and having, 10:52 you know, a situation where prisoners are in more wholesome 10:54 and better environment than prison and just, 10:56 you know, criminal, you know, criminal, 10:59 you know, a college is a positive thing. 11:02 And I do think that religion and Christianity 11:05 and other religions, you know, Islam and Judaism 11:09 can play a positive role in prisoner's lives. 11:11 Absolutely. 11:12 And before the break and I want to move on 11:15 as quickly as possible after the break to another topic 11:18 but we know from the Bible the hard times are coming again. 11:23 They had been around many times. 11:24 The Middle Ages was the time of religious persecution 11:27 and so there will be a time in the future 11:29 if not the final time 11:32 when for faith people will be put in prisons. 11:35 And I just think there's an interesting dynamic 11:39 with the-- after this the crime, 11:42 even the way the sentencing is played out. 11:45 It can be determined where someone goes 11:47 or there could be extraordinary punishment 11:49 for relatively minor crime but because the religious 11:53 viewpoint of that person seen unfavorably, 11:57 they could be punished in a prison. 12:00 I think they could be coerced to another religious viewpoint. 12:03 I think there's a great potential 12:05 that we are not thinking about 12:06 where we are dealing with the free society 12:08 and yet if you have a huge religious conflict, 12:12 then you suddenly jump to the other side of the fence, 12:14 we're right now in good times. 12:17 Your rights and options are extremely limited. Well-- 12:21 I don't know the answer but I think it's worth discussing. 12:24 Yeah, again, I think prison contexts are very difficult 12:28 and while I think individuals are entitled 12:30 to their religious freedom you know, in prison 12:32 it's going to be within a context 12:34 of a correctional study. 12:35 And the reality is that the people in prison 12:37 deserve to be able to follow their God and follow religion 12:40 just as much as non prisoners. 12:43 They have to realize though that there are some liberties 12:45 that they gonna have to give up 12:46 because of the situation they are in. 12:49 Hold that thought, Todd. 12:50 We will be right back after a short break. 12:52 So stay with us viewers with Todd McFarland, 12:54 we will continue our discussion shortly. |
Revised 2014-12-17