Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program bringing
you news, views, discussion
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Todd McFarland,
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Associate General Council
of the General Conference
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of Seventh-day Adventist
and a particular lead person
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on religious
liberty cases and concerns.
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And of course you
deal with Liberty magazine.
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I brought for it often.
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I am legal council for Liberty
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and defend you on
a regular basis now.
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And I defend you
on the schedule. Yes.
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Now, little inside joking
but he is on our Liberty board
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and we really
appreciate what you do.
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I want to talk about some issues
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that are of concern to me
and we will see where it goes.
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Well before I started
editing Liberty magazine
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on other periodical, I
used to get letters from prison.
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Different prisoners write to me
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and you know, I
did not empathize
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but I sympathize
with those men cut off,
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their own problem
you know, presume.
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Still they are isolated,
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they've lost many
of the civil liberties
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that we assume, you know,
we just assume we have them
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and here desperate
people sort of reaching out
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wanting religious liberty when
they write to Liberty magazine.
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And so I am very
concern for the rights
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to have religious accommodation
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and you know to be able to
interact on a spiritual level
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as well as some civil liberties.
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I don't want them
out on the street.
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And I just want to
know your thoughts on it.
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Where are we on the religious
liberty rights of prisoners?
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Well, the Adventist
church has taken cases
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with Adventists in prison.
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These are about people
who were Adventists before
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and people who were
converted while in prison
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and defended their rights.
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The usually found
the two categories.
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One, diet, so they
believe to have a vegetarian
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or, you know, meal
or one without meat,
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at least not unclean meat.
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And then the second
is on Sabbath issue.
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So you know not been required
to do prison work on Sabbath.
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Those are the two categories.
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There's a third
category I know and I--
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you probably included or
just don't want to differentiate
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but I know that
there's an issue with them
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getting religious
material that they want.
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It's not automatic that
they get anything more than--
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well, even Bibles are
not automatic necessarily.
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In seven years
I've been doing this,
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we have not had a
problem with material.
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We received some
scattered reports but you know,
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actual problems that
have come on to our desk
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have not included any
really religious materials,
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at least in United States.
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Well, I do know
that it's very often
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the discretion of the
prison chaplain or someone
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and on other odd
occasion they have expressed
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a negative comment
about, like Liberty magazine
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or some religious materials
that the prisoners wants
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and they won't pass
it on or won't order it.
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That issue has come up
in the past is not been one
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that we have had, you know,
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you hear all
these anecdotal issues.
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Well, I get
letters from-- Right.
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But when you will actually
look into it we had very few.
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The primary
problems in prison litigation
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have been diet and
then Sabbath issues.
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You know and a lot
of people don't believe
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that prisoners
should have any right.
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So there's very much a
view of you know, not--
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you know they are in prison,
they are there for a good reason
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which is usually true
though not universally.
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But you know just
because you are in prison,
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it doesn't mean you give
up your religious rights.
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It doesn't mean that you
should not have the freedom
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within a prison
context to follow your faith.
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And doesn't mean
you should be required
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to do something that violate
your faith as long as they are,
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you know, isn't a
good prison reason for it.
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Well, it goes back to a
deeper debate within society
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whether they are in prison
to deprive them of liberty
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or to inflict
punitive punishment upon them.
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Well, yeah, we
don't need to get--
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I mean you know-- But it's true,
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isn't that's
probably what's going on?
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No, there is never been
at least in United States
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a theory that I
mean, when religious rights
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are denied to prisoners,
it's not for punitive purposes.
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I mean you would
never get away with that.
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But as far as the
incarceration in general,
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many people hold that
they are there to be punished
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and another view of
imprisonment is that the penalty
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is to be deprived
of their freedom of--
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Yeah, but the
conflict always comes up
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and the reason the
prison always defends
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this is not on any theory of--
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you know of prisons and
correction and so forth.
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It's all has to do
with safety and security.
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And that would apply for
as there's other contexts
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in which people are incarcerated
and in the health context
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which is almost like a
prison but they are not--
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It's certainly
against their will.
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But they are no
there to be punished.
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And the reality is
almost all the same issues
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will come up in
non punitive context
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in which you are incarcerated
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in this they
were in the punitive.
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So you know, the reality
is, you know, Christ says,
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you know, when I was
in prison you visited me.
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Well, that means
you know, not in prison,
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you know, but you
know, innocent you know,
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but it mean you
know, know a person
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who did something wrong.
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And you know, and
what group needs ministry
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more than incarcerated
population so you know,
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we have helped individuals
you know, in the prison context
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as far as the work
context we had a part of a case
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against the State of Michigan
and it's still going on.
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State of
Michigan would get you off
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for almost any reason from work
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except for
religion and this violate,
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I mean the Federal
Department of Bureau of Prisons
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allows people off, you
know, from work or duties
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because of religion
but Michigan wouldn't
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and it's just one
example of the state.
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In my view that was just nothing
other than religious anonymous.
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They just didn't
want to deal with this.
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They viewed
prisoner's religious choices
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had been just trying
to gain system's faith,
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it's not worthy of protection
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and so you know we
were part of a lawsuit
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against them on that.
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And there's no
question that in prisons,
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prisoners use a
religious commitment
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as other things to
sort of get what they want.
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You know this
jail has conversion
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with the certain
negative connotation around it.
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And prisons can obviously
can and do regulate that issue.
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So you know if a
person wants off on Saturday
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and not have to
work, you can require them
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to work on Sunday and
other days of the week.
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You know, the meals, you know,
don't have to be better meals,
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they just have to be
ones that don't include,
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you know, meat.
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Dress and garb cases
which aren't Adventist cases
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but for other prisoners as
you know beards and so forth,
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I mean, again prisons can
and do and should regulate this
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but this sort of reflexive,
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you know, to
know that often comes
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from corrections officers
you know, is problematic.
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Yeah.
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Another aspect of-- I
have a lot of thoughts on this
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but we need to discuss it's
not in the public view any more
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but I think it's not gone away.
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Going back to then
Governor Bush's tenure in Texas,
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it was a trendy sort of a
moment to privatize prisons.
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Have corporations or
business entities run
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federal state prisons.
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They wanted federal
but it was state ones then.
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And the most bizarre
cases in my view were Christian,
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not denominations but Christian
organizations running prisons,
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treating the
prisoners very well.
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There was even an up to
out clothes for the prisoners
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but of course
this presses beyond
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whether they just
require to get it there.
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And the whole prison
life involve indoctrination
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in the certain viewpoint.
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If they didn't fit
in or they didn't like
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they would be send out
to not so pleasant prisons.
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So in essence
they could be punished
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for not acceding to a standard
religious line of instruction.
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And to me the line there between
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what we used to
see in communists,
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there is of
indoctrination camps, very thin.
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Even though they
probably were morally better off
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for having gone
through such a thing
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but someone who has
lost their liberties
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now is herded toward
enforced instruction.
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I mean, and I am not here
to defend those prejudices,
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I think-- No, we
are just discussing-
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'cause it's
interesting that the dynamic.
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The people who ran
those or running those
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and promoted those would I know
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would completely disagree
with your characterization.
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They would say that
those were voluntary,
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that they-- if they
were not part of the program
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they were in
different part of the prison
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that wouldn't necessarily be
any better or worse than that.
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But there was no
courage and these are people
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who wanted to be in
Christian environment
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that there was lower
instance of violence and crime
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and other things in
this particular part
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and it was purely voluntary.
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It was not
different than you know,
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people in the free world
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voluntary living
in a certain community
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that they could
voluntary into that community.
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I mean, there's some lawsuits
over that in Iowa in particular
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and there were
some establishments
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that cause problems.
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And along many of the
concerns that you raised.
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You know, as
long as the issue is,
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as long as it's truly voluntary
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which is always hard to
say in a prison context,
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you know, because the reality is
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if you have sort
of a Christian wing
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and that has less violence on it
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then its going to be attractive
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to even to
non-Christians, to everyone.
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And so you know, do
you create a situation
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whereby having a less
violent part of the prison,
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you know, you are
creating a sinning for people.
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These were actually a
dedicated prison. Right.
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If they left that
prison, it was not that wing
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they would go to
another prison. Right.
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It's not quite a clear analogy
but it does put me to mind
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a little bit of
the dispute in England
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back in the Middle Ages between
church courts or civil courts.
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People often would
rather be in one than the other.
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And the mater of fact was
it skewed justice greatly.
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But it just
troubles me in prisons
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where you have lost
through your own action usually,
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it's true, I don't dispute that.
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But commit a crime or an
offence against the society
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and you are put under the
discretion of the government
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and then it can either force
or carouse you into a situation
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that can compromise
your moral integrity
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where you are being
even forced to listen
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to something you
don't want to listen to
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is really against the
religious liberty principle.
00:10:29.48\00:10:31.33
And these concerns I
think is one of the reasons.
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First of all these
were limited small programs
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and they've not taken off. No.
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And I think many of
the concerns that you raise
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is only the reasons why
they didn't really take off,
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you know, it was an experiment,
00:10:42.01\00:10:43.04
it was an attempt and
I think the one prison
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that this did happened and since
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you know, ended that program.
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You know, there was many
laudable goals and having,
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you know, a situation where
prisoners are in more wholesome
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and better environment
than prison and just,
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you know,
criminal, you know, criminal,
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you know, a college
is a positive thing.
00:10:59.48\00:11:02.67
And I do think that
religion and Christianity
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and other religions,
you know, Islam and Judaism
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can play a positive
role in prisoner's lives.
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Absolutely.
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And before the break
and I want to move on
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as quickly as possible
after the break to another topic
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but we know from the Bible
the hard times are coming again.
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They had been around many times.
00:11:23.43\00:11:24.46
The Middle Ages was the
time of religious persecution
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and so there will
be a time in the future
00:11:27.24\00:11:29.31
if not the final time
00:11:29.34\00:11:32.22
when for faith people
will be put in prisons.
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And I just think
there's an interesting dynamic
00:11:35.81\00:11:39.00
with the-- after this the crime,
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even the way the
sentencing is played out.
00:11:42.24\00:11:45.34
It can be
determined where someone goes
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or there could be
extraordinary punishment
00:11:47.41\00:11:49.71
for relatively minor
crime but because the religious
00:11:49.74\00:11:53.14
viewpoint of that
person seen unfavorably,
00:11:53.17\00:11:57.16
they could be
punished in a prison.
00:11:57.19\00:12:00.64
I think they could be coerced
to another religious viewpoint.
00:12:00.67\00:12:03.58
I think there's
a great potential
00:12:03.61\00:12:05.40
that we are not thinking about
00:12:05.43\00:12:06.61
where we are dealing
with the free society
00:12:06.64\00:12:08.73
and yet if you have a
huge religious conflict,
00:12:08.76\00:12:12.02
then you suddenly jump to
the other side of the fence,
00:12:12.05\00:12:14.62
we're right now in good times.
00:12:14.65\00:12:17.50
Your rights and options
are extremely limited. Well--
00:12:17.53\00:12:21.91
I don't know the answer but
I think it's worth discussing.
00:12:21.94\00:12:24.64
Yeah, again, I think prison
contexts are very difficult
00:12:24.67\00:12:28.31
and while I think
individuals are entitled
00:12:28.34\00:12:30.30
to their religious
freedom you know, in prison
00:12:30.33\00:12:32.84
it's going to
be within a context
00:12:32.87\00:12:34.05
of a correctional study.
00:12:34.08\00:12:35.62
And the reality is
that the people in prison
00:12:35.65\00:12:37.58
deserve to be able to follow
their God and follow religion
00:12:37.61\00:12:39.99
just as much as non prisoners.
00:12:40.02\00:12:43.13
They have to realize though
that there are some liberties
00:12:43.16\00:12:45.22
that they gonna have to give up
00:12:45.25\00:12:46.45
because of the
situation they are in.
00:12:46.48\00:12:49.20
Hold that thought, Todd.
00:12:49.23\00:12:50.27
We will be right
back after a short break.
00:12:50.30\00:12:52.25
So stay with us
viewers with Todd McFarland,
00:12:52.28\00:12:54.54
we will continue
our discussion shortly.
00:12:54.57\00:12:57.36