Welcome back,
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before the break I was talking
with Todd McFarland about
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legal assistance for people that
have problems in the workplace.
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And of course
it's many unvaried,
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and various union,
nonunion, government,
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non-government and so on.
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And there is some positive
things that you've laid out.
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And I think the postal
service been closed on Sabbath
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or seizing regular deliveries
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that will take
away one potential.
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One that I hear a lot about from
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and it totally from
people as I travel around that
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it may or may not
be as they perceive it,
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but some of the big box stores
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around I say when they
apply they are leading questions
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whether they're
available on the weekends
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and Sabbath and so on
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and they think that
they are being filtered out,
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pre-selected out even
before they get the job
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because it's not
acceptable to one Sabbath
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or Friday afternoon
or Friday after sunset.
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We certainly
have reports of that
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and employers can
ask about availability.
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Now it'd be
difficult for them to say that
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everyone has to be
able to work on Saturday.
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Every time we
received report that
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we've actually forward up to
some of those major employers,
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in fact I actually had some
people apply for a job there
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and put open
availability except on Saturday
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and they got a bunch of
calls asking them to come work.
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So we haven't been
able to verify that.
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I would say if
anyone can show that
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and especially if
the computer screen
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just kick them
out of the process,
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give us a call, let us know
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we'd be very interested
in talking to that person
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finding who the
employer is and verifying that
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and dealing with that issue.
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But to so far, we haven't
really able to verify that,
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when you actually get
to the concrete details.
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Well, that's good if that so.
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I mean, it's clearly a
lot of anecdotal evidence
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from the people or at least
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maybe it's a
suspicion made into reality
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by their own
action, I don't know.
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And it's a great vulnerability.
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We do know and I'm 100%
sure you are aware of this,
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there's a plenty of
documented cases in interviews
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where someone
before the job offer says,
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well, now I
can't work, you know,
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after Friday
sunset or on Saturday
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and therefore the
job's not offered.
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I mean it's made very clean that
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well, you are not acceptable.
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And we've had those cases,
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we've also had
those cases by the way
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which we have taken successfully
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resolved in litigation
or short of litigation.
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You know, I always
tell-- But, excuse me.
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But you can't litigate
less that's been a job offer?
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No, no that's not
true at all. Isn't it?
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Oh, no, no, no.
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I thought that
there are different rights
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to kick in when
the job's offered.
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It is easier once
it has been in offer,
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and it's easier
once they have a job.
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But no, the interview,
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the
nondiscrimination provisions of
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Federal and State law
applying the application process
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equally as they
do the employment.
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I mean, it's called
the employment process
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and it implies just as
much as you are applicant
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as you are an employee.
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From the factual
standpoint is always easier
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to prove what's an employee.
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But you know, I always
tell our church members,
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you know, 'cause
they ask, you know,
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what advice do you
give them and then I said,
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first of all you can't lie,
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you can't break one
commitment to keep another.
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I'm glad you say
that I agree with it.
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On the other hand, you
don't have to volunteer
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and you don't have to
bring the first issue up
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about your Sabbath.
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I mean, the
question is, you know,
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is there any day of
the week you can't work?
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The answer that is no.
You can work all seven days.
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Now on Friday,
it's still sundown
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and then on
Saturday it's after sundown.
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On weekend-- can
you work weekends?
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Absolutely.
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You can work from
sundown Saturday and Sunday.
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You know, so
there is lot of ways
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to answer the questions
truthfully and honestly,
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but yet not raise
the whole bunch of flags
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that could put
you and an employer
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in a difficult position.
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You're right, I've
always tell people that
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just because you
don't have to say it,
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if you knowingly create
the bad impression or gives,
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you know, or willing,
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you can't be willing to
compromise your principle
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just to get the job and
then suddenly it emerges after.
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And I like the
way you express that.
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Without giving
the wrong impression,
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without saying the wrong thing,
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which is morally culpable,
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you can still
hold to your rights
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and maybe get
accommodation later.
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Right. Do you
want to say something?
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I didn't intend on this program,
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but this is
probably an appropriate place
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to introduce a
piece of legislation
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that we'd all hope
for, for many years
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and it's been
discussed a lot on this program.
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Workplace Religious Freedom Act?
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Yes, well, we're
still hoping for it. Just--
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Are we? Yes, you
know, absolutely.
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Just to be clear for our members
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what is the Workplace
Religious Freedom Act,
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lovingly refer to us as WRFA--
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That's why I hesitated,
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because I'm so in the
habit to say WRFA, yeah.
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So just in quick example,
just a quick still background
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for our viewers,
of course is that
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the standard for undue hardship
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in a religion
case is very minimal,
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it's called the Minima,
this is for the accommodation.
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This is for the accommodation--
Cost of accommodation. Right.
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For disability, it's higher.
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In other words,
if you come and say,
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I need
accommodation for disability
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and an employer
has to try harder
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and do more than for religion.
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And what Workplace
Religious Freedom Act is,
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it would end that disparity,
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would stop that
really discrimination
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and it would put religion on
the same level as disability.
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And it's a pretty modest law.
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We've been
trying to get it passed.
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And, you know, unfortunately
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last several
congresses it's not just budgets
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that congress
hasn't been able to pass,
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it's been lot of other things.
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And trying to get movement
on this law has been difficult.
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But we haven't given up
and we're still working for it.
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I've had the feeling
like since we had such
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strong bipartisan
support in the past,
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even had two
congressional hearings on it,
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subcommittee
hearings, I thought,
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it didn't go then so it
sure isn't gonna get now.
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No, and I take
the example we have--
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If they're still in
need. They're still in need.
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And, you know,
the thing you got to
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understand things
takes time in Washington.
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And, you know, what
I wish would to happen
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by now for instance with
the American Disability Act,
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you know, it took
20 plus years for that.
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And so if it takes us 20 or 30
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we will still be there
trying to get it passed.
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Well, you might be. Yes. Well--
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No, I'm not that,
but hold of it. Yes.
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And we don't want
to be the 20s or 30s.
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No, we do not
want. It's already been.
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And they are
working about six years now.
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Well, it's been, I
mean, if you look back to
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it's probably been, you know,
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probably close
to 20 that it's in,
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'cause as soon as the bad
Supreme Court decision came out
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and TWA versus
Hardison back in late 70's,
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there's been some attempt
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to try to fix that
case legislatively.
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Now maybe I've
been saying it wrong
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and even on this program
I've spoken about this before,
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part of what I thought
we were trying to do was
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to sort of reverse the
burden of proof at the moment
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since it's a de minimis,
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can be as small as a de
minimis cost of accommodation,
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lets the employer
off the hook often
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if it goes to former.
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This law would turn
the other way around
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rather than the
employer having a burden
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to prove why they
should get something,
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this would be the
employer would have to show
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why they can't give up.
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Right, it's really not
changing the burden of proof.
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What it's changing is
the level of undue hardship.
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So right now,
what's known is De Minimis,
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which is a fancy
legal word for minimal.
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Like a dollar or
nickel. Yeah, right.
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I mean, and my predecessor said,
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you know, 1 nickel
which is not accurate
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and it is a little bit
higher than the nickel,
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but we had a case
against the major US corporation
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and they were happy
to quote that against us,
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you know, lawsuit that we have--
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So we could have got the
dollar instead of a nickel?
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Right, so he told
Mitch to be careful
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what he says in the future,
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but it is a
pretty minimal standard
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and so this would change
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and raise it up to what
is the disability standard.
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Okay-- Which is significant
hardship for difficulty.
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Okay, and this clearly
a need for improvement.
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But what I've
tried to say, you know,
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and we need to tell people this
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most of the cases are settled
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before it gets to
this full scale litigation.
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Oh, absolutely, and
it's usually a matter of
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clarifying with
the employer the rights
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that exist on paper and in law
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and State do the right
thing then it's all over.
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Well, then it's done well.
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Most of our
members will have problems.
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I mean, we have
hundreds of cases
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there are various
religious liberty personnel
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throughout the country
handling in a given year.
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And the vast,
vast, vast majority
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those are resolve before
they were come to our office.
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But you know, it's not
all of them and you know,
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we don't know how many
church members are out there
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who aren't
getting an accommodation
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that we never hear about.
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So you know,
equalizing this burden
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so it's the same as
disability something
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I think would put the balance
in the right perspective.
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Right now, it is
so for the employer
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that there isn't a
lot the whole vicinity
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for employers to even try.
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That's very
unfortunate, isn't it? It is.
00:08:36.31\00:08:38.76
And, you know, there
are employers out there
00:08:38.79\00:08:41.11
who try to do the right
thing, but there are some,
00:08:41.14\00:08:43.71
especially large
employers who really don't try.
00:08:43.74\00:08:46.92
Now what do you
think is changing
00:08:46.95\00:08:49.91
because in some ways I
think it's gotten tougher,
00:08:49.94\00:08:52.73
maybe just the job
matter has tightened up.
00:08:52.76\00:08:55.66
But is religion thought of
less favorably by employers?
00:08:55.69\00:09:02.19
Is it this country
which you would think
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superficially has
lot of easy talk of
00:09:05.91\00:09:07.81
religious rights
and Christian America?
00:09:07.84\00:09:10.83
Is it on the
margins religious minorities
00:09:10.86\00:09:13.49
are not respected like before?
00:09:13.52\00:09:15.64
What's changing or
changed in the dynamic?
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Well, first of all it's never
been a positive environment.
00:09:18.54\00:09:21.00
So I don't know if
anything's changed.
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I think it's more than same.
00:09:22.25\00:09:24.05
We've done Focus Groups on this.
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We have lawsuits and
talked to people about it.
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I can tell you, the two things
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that have made
the most impression.
00:09:29.30\00:09:30.33
First of all, animus
against the particular religion
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so forth
especially Adventist is maybe
00:09:32.92\00:09:35.07
an inch deep in a
mile wide, which is to say,
00:09:35.10\00:09:36.94
yeah, we maybe
confuse, but it's not like oh,
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I just hate the Adventist and,
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therefore they're
not gonna help me.
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Well, we have no
frustration, but we learned
00:09:41.19\00:09:42.22
in the
presidential election moments
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and when the
elections it's deep and wide.
00:09:44.83\00:09:48.15
Yeah, well, again
though when we get
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in these groups
really would have bulls down
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to it's to two things.
00:09:52.40\00:09:53.71
First of all what
did the employee do
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and how much hardship is
gonna be on the employer?
00:09:56.34\00:09:58.39
The second thing it
has an impact on it,
00:09:58.42\00:10:00.25
there is this presumption
00:10:00.28\00:10:01.86
amongst the lot of
Americans that the employer
00:10:01.89\00:10:04.31
is going to follow the
law that they are doing
00:10:04.34\00:10:06.47
the right thing and
it really is the employee
00:10:06.50\00:10:08.80
who has to come in and show
00:10:08.83\00:10:09.86
they're not
trying to game the system
00:10:09.89\00:10:11.17
or get something special.
00:10:11.20\00:10:12.30
I mean, if I heard
one more story about
00:10:12.33\00:10:14.07
the Wal-Mart coffee
lawsuit I think I'll,
00:10:14.10\00:10:17.30
you know, throw in the towel,
00:10:17.33\00:10:18.38
because everyone
sort of uses that
00:10:18.41\00:10:19.58
as the poster child
and so you got to get over
00:10:19.61\00:10:21.60
that jury animus
that this is just like
00:10:21.63\00:10:23.35
the McDonalds coffee case.
00:10:23.38\00:10:24.44
Oh, the McDonalds? Yes.
00:10:24.47\00:10:26.84
Not the Wal-Mart. I
think, the rest of Wal-Mart?
00:10:26.87\00:10:28.86
Yes. Oh, I apologize, no.
00:10:28.89\00:10:30.05
It's McDonalds
because-- McDonalds.
00:10:30.08\00:10:31.60
No, no, no, it was definitely
00:10:31.63\00:10:33.58
McDonalds coffee
case in New Mexico.
00:10:33.61\00:10:36.34
And so you know,
that sort of prejudice
00:10:36.37\00:10:39.79
for lack of better
term against the plaintiff
00:10:39.82\00:10:41.98
can be hard to overcome.
00:10:42.01\00:10:44.00
So you think the
prejudice is long existed
00:10:44.03\00:10:47.85
and there's nothing much
changed except just the tight,
00:10:47.88\00:10:52.07
you know, the stakes are higher
00:10:52.10\00:10:53.13
in the workplace and it exposes
00:10:53.16\00:10:54.73
perhaps more than we would see.
00:10:54.76\00:10:56.10
Yeah, and I
think as we come into
00:10:56.13\00:10:57.58
a more
religiously diverse country
00:10:57.61\00:11:00.06
there is more conflicts.
00:11:00.09\00:11:01.12
I mean, you know,
30 years ago who needed
00:11:01.15\00:11:03.29
to have a room to
go pray, you know,
00:11:03.32\00:11:05.01
a couple of times
a day towards Mecca.
00:11:05.04\00:11:06.39
We have more Muslims now.
00:11:06.42\00:11:07.99
There's dressed in
garb cases for others.
00:11:08.02\00:11:10.19
So there is
just more diversity--
00:11:10.22\00:11:11.73
I don't know why you
saying what I've thought.
00:11:11.76\00:11:13.20
The US is an admiral
country for many things.
00:11:13.23\00:11:16.40
First Amendment
is very forthright,
00:11:16.43\00:11:19.45
but there's no lack of
religious conflict here.
00:11:19.48\00:11:22.19
I think the reason
it's played out differently
00:11:22.22\00:11:23.86
than most
countries is it's so diverse.
00:11:23.89\00:11:26.36
Nobody has the whip hand.
00:11:26.39\00:11:27.50
I think if a certain
Protestant sect with 90%
00:11:27.53\00:11:30.38
of the population they would be
00:11:30.41\00:11:31.79
vicious against minority.
00:11:31.82\00:11:33.54
But it still's a
bubbling, boiling,
00:11:33.57\00:11:35.98
cauldron of many
relatively small groups wanting
00:11:36.01\00:11:39.31
the moment on the sun, isn't it?
00:11:39.34\00:11:41.10
Absolutely. So what is--
00:11:41.13\00:11:45.02
Give a quick summation on
00:11:45.05\00:11:46.11
Religious
Liberty and Litigation.
00:11:46.14\00:11:48.43
Is it positive or negative?
00:11:48.46\00:11:50.15
You know, we
continue to fight the fight
00:11:50.18\00:11:51.66
with Religious
Liberty and Litigation.
00:11:51.69\00:11:53.76
The courts have
been more receptive
00:11:53.79\00:11:55.07
recently to our cases.
00:11:55.10\00:11:57.33
But it still a hard
fight and we need legislation
00:11:57.36\00:11:59.52
that portrays
religious freedom act
00:11:59.55\00:12:01.38
to fix the current problems.
00:12:01.41\00:12:04.26
One of the most
telling scenes in the Bible is
00:12:04.29\00:12:06.28
when Jesus surrounded by
a bunch of cynical adults,
00:12:06.31\00:12:10.83
took a little
child and then said,
00:12:10.86\00:12:13.08
"anybody that deceives
the child and causes the child
00:12:13.11\00:12:16.66
to go astray
better that he'd be thrown
00:12:16.69\00:12:19.43
into the bottom of the sea
00:12:19.46\00:12:20.49
with a millstone
around his neck."
00:12:20.52\00:12:22.50
God obviously cares for
conscious and for innocents.
00:12:22.53\00:12:26.79
And I do believe
that in the workplace,
00:12:26.82\00:12:28.96
in defending such
people those children of faith
00:12:28.99\00:12:34.42
we in Religious Liberty
and anybody of consequence
00:12:34.45\00:12:38.46
and ability to make such defense
00:12:38.49\00:12:40.56
is doing the very
work of God Himself.
00:12:40.59\00:12:43.63
A faith an innocent
faith in any situation
00:12:43.66\00:12:47.29
must be defended.
00:12:47.32\00:12:48.35
It has rights.
00:12:48.38\00:12:49.68
Has a reward as Paul
says also when he spoke about
00:12:49.71\00:12:52.73
the Faithful
captain sworn and burned
00:12:52.76\00:12:55.01
and they faithful said,
00:12:55.04\00:12:57.23
"All for the faith
that they obey their Lord."
00:12:57.26\00:13:00.77
In defending
people in the workplace
00:13:00.80\00:13:02.94
those in the
religious liberty work,
00:13:02.97\00:13:04.79
I believe, are
fulfilling the command of God
00:13:04.82\00:13:07.88
to defend the defenseless,
to uphold the faith that
00:13:07.91\00:13:11.60
we all have in
higher spiritual values
00:13:11.63\00:13:15.32
and to prepare the way
for the coming of the Lord.
00:13:15.35\00:13:19.79
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:19.82\00:13:24.51