Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000209A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is a program that brings you 00:27 news, views, and discussion, 00:30 and some insight on religious liberty issues 00:32 in the United States and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:38 And my guest on the program is Todd McFarland, 00:42 Associate General Council of the General Conference. 00:45 I was gonna say Esquire. 00:47 We have a common friend that always puts the Esquire 00:49 after his name as the lawyer. 00:51 That is not me. 00:52 No, but I certainly respect your legal opinion 00:57 and what you're doing as general council 00:58 and the big part of what you do in association 01:02 with our religious liberty workers 01:04 as you're involved often directly in the legal cases 01:07 of defending people for Sabbath accommodation 01:11 and religious issues in the workplace. 01:13 Right. 01:15 You know, I travel around a lot as you do 01:17 talking to mostly church members about religious liberty. 01:21 And there's a wonderful theology of religious liberty. 01:25 There's a good historic background we can give. 01:30 A lot of legal president but for many of these members 01:34 I believe the nitty-gritty of it is will they be defended 01:37 if there's a problem with their faith. 01:39 Right. 01:42 Have you got any idea of how many times 01:45 we church in North America is legally involved 01:50 in defending cases like this? 01:52 And maybe put it into perspective 01:53 as oppose to the times there's issues, 01:56 but, you know, how many of them 01:57 go to a legal confrontation? 02:00 Well, the Seventh-day Adventist Church 02:02 will just provide support to its members 02:04 and others on religious liberty issues in the workplace. 02:06 Of course, it doesn't file all the lawsuits, 02:09 there are fair number of members 02:10 who either you see will help them 02:12 or they find on lawyers. 02:13 That's what I wanted to sort of get through 02:14 because it can be misleading I think, 02:16 you know to say, just making up a number, 02:19 say there were 100 cases this year 02:22 that really won't tell 02:23 the picture of activity in this whole area. 02:25 Yeah, I mean, first of all if for us 02:27 to file 100 cases would be, 02:29 in a year would be a exponential increase. 02:31 We filed really this on average three to five new cases a year. 02:37 We do know, for instance the EEOC keeps track of. 02:39 Yeah, this is? 02:41 Yeah, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 02:42 is the governmental 02:43 and in charge of enforcing employment laws 02:46 and you have to filed you claim with them to begin with. 02:49 They keep track of the different categories 02:52 and we do know that religion cases 02:54 are only about little over 3% of all employment cases. 02:58 So it is really a narrow niche, in fact, 03:00 you know, we retain 03:01 and I work with local employment lawyers 03:03 and most of them have had no religion cases 03:07 in their career and maybe one or two at the most. 03:11 But I keep coming back to qualifying it this way. 03:16 I'm an editor of a magazine obviously Liberty magazine. 03:20 We send it out to nearly 200,000 readers. 03:23 I believe they read it, 03:25 but I don't get that many letters back. 03:27 And when I get a letter, 03:28 it means a lot to and I sort of write that larger 03:32 and I do believe it has to be so, 03:34 you know, the church may take only a handful of cases 03:37 usually to prove a point. 03:40 I mean, that's an issue that's important to us 03:41 not just that here's the case 03:43 and then down the line even letters 03:45 that are written or to an employer and so on. 03:50 I have to believe that there's a lot of people of faith 03:53 that had issues in the workplace, 03:55 but at different levels they don't-- 03:57 they either get settled there and they don't come on up. 04:00 So we got any feel the way, 04:01 you know, what could you say about 04:03 the overall issue like you're saying the EEOC, 04:07 what's that 3%? Right. 04:09 Couldn't that be a little bit like unemployment, 04:11 you know, they quote the unemployment figures. 04:13 We know there are massive amount of people 04:15 that don't even go on the unemployment rolls. 04:17 One reason or another, they just don't show up, 04:19 they drop out, or they are self-sufficient or whatever. 04:23 Well, yeah, I mean, not everyone is going 04:25 to follow charge of discrimination-- 04:26 That's my point. 04:27 Who had a problem with workplace. 04:28 That's quite a foremost process, isn't it? It is, it's a pretty-- 04:30 It's a process people design to do on their own. 04:32 I mean, it's the best cage we have, 04:35 you know, is do we have an absolute 04:36 number of the people who have problems in the workplace 04:39 and the answer that is no. 04:40 But we do know its-- first of all since September 11, 04:43 it's been a growing field 04:44 and that we're pretty confident of. 04:46 And second it is a minority of cases, 04:48 I mean people have more of a gender problem 04:50 or race claim in the workplace than they do religion. 04:52 And that, you know, I'm pretty confidently saying. 04:54 Yeah, you could tell proportionally--Right. 04:56 You know, obviously that's reassurance, 04:57 so it's not a massive problem but it is a continuing issue. 05:00 Well, I will see this another sort of gauge this is, 05:03 maybe in formal gauge is, 05:04 you know, whom we meet with church members 05:06 and like you do in a weekend or I do sometimes as well. 05:09 Often I ask people in the group, 05:11 you know, how many here who ever had a Sabbath problem. 05:13 And of course it's a self selected group, 05:15 I mean you can't extrapolate from that too much. 05:17 But the vast majority of members 05:18 really have never had a direct Sabbath problem. 05:21 And that's due to a couple of things. 05:23 One, education, it will make a huge difference 05:25 usually the higher level of education 05:27 you have the less likely are. 05:28 And then second, the type of industry 05:30 and where you're working. 05:31 Well, yes I was gonna say the same thing. 05:34 And I remember very clearly going to one meeting 05:37 where people were discussion problems and all the rest. 05:40 And rather I typically this woman doctor jumped up 05:44 and she says, you know, you're talking about this, 05:46 she says, I have massive problems. 05:47 She says, I lost $500,000 a year practice 05:52 because of religious discrimination 05:54 and I had to move and go elsewhere. 05:56 And she got no pity from the, 05:58 you know, the hotel workers and so. 05:59 Yes. And the Wal-Mart employees 06:03 there they were complaining. 06:04 But the reality is she admitted that she is more mobile. 06:10 If she doesn't like it, if there is some issue, 06:12 she just moves and gets another 06:14 maybe not equally good job but she is not as effected by. 06:17 So it's the person with lower education, 06:20 lower income person, minority perhaps, 06:23 they are very vulnerable. 06:24 And I think there is a significant number 06:26 of Seventh-day Adventists that meet those criteria 06:29 that have a lot of problems 06:31 and we don't always hear about them. 06:32 No, and we don't and, you know, 06:33 there is also regional differences 06:35 as far as how strong the programs 06:37 we have in different parts of the country 06:38 stronger than others. 06:39 It's, you know, it's a, you know, 06:41 the only thing we can do is continue try to promote it, 06:44 enough people have problems they should contact 06:46 their Seventh-day Adventist pastor 06:49 and then they can go up, 06:50 it goes up provincially to the union. 06:51 They can call to the General Conference if they want. 06:53 We'll refer him to the right person. 06:55 You just call the general number 06:57 and ask to speak to myself or you know, 06:59 your religious liberty issue 07:01 and it will get final to the right person. 07:03 I mean, our system is pretty good about, 07:05 if you contact somebody in religious liberty, 07:06 it's gonna get to the right person. 07:07 Right, we have a mechanism, you're right. 07:09 And even if they can't do our liberty website 07:11 libertymagazine.org we would pass it on. 07:14 Yes. And I get those from Morassi, 07:16 your colleague all the time. 07:18 Yeah, yeah. Well, she is the-- 07:19 well, they come to me, my email is the-- 07:22 And I've passed a couple of interesting ones on too. 07:26 But it is reassuring on one level 07:29 and I just want to balance it. 07:30 I'm always the flip flop, you know, 07:32 it's bad and yet not so bad. 07:36 It's not huge numbers that go the full distance, 07:39 but I do think there's a significant 07:41 and maybe even growing number of people 07:43 on the vulnerable edges of the labor market 07:47 that is not going away anytime soon. 07:49 No, it's not and things have sort of contributed 07:51 this is one like 24/7 economy. 07:54 I mean, so its work is workplaces feel the need 07:56 to increase efficiency to work their workforce 08:00 more to service their costumers more 08:02 which means working in to the weekend 08:03 which means working into the Sabbath for Adventist 08:05 and other people. 08:07 That's gonna create more complex. 08:09 There's also ironically the whole HR push 08:12 which has happened in the last, 08:13 you know, some employment rights pushing now. 08:15 It used to be labor unions and then in 70, 80s 08:19 we started having what's known as employment law. 08:21 You know, the sort of the mantra of employment law 08:23 generally is, you know, treat everyone the same, 08:26 do the same thing for everyone. 08:27 Which is just the exact opposite 08:29 what needs to happen in the accommodation case. 08:31 That's true yeah, yeah. 08:32 So it's time you find the HR, 08:34 you know, human resources managers, 08:36 you know, don't want to do anything, 08:37 'cause they're afraid of you know, 08:38 discriminating against other employees. 08:40 And union concern even though 08:43 Seventh-day Adventists are not usually in the union, 08:46 they subject to the seniority 08:48 and other conditions of the union 08:50 that can sort of get in the way of them, 08:52 getting something that the others 08:53 are not seen as getting. 08:54 Yeah, it is-- The accommodation. 08:56 Right. It is true that while unions 08:57 can't under the right circumstances 08:59 provide employ protections in other contexts. 09:01 If you either have a disability or religious accommodation, 09:05 either one of those unions are usually 09:07 not going to be a-- 09:09 and it's not gonna be to your benefit, 09:10 because, you know, they are more about 09:12 treating everyone the same 09:13 and not making in-- by seniority as a person 09:16 doing something different for a person 09:18 so they can keep the job in their favor. 09:20 Yes, now Seventh-day Adventist 09:22 have a particular viewpoint on unions 09:24 that mixes an understanding of prophecy. 09:29 I'm hesitating to say it for what it is. 09:31 But you know, we've been led to believe 09:33 by some Biblical evidence and modeling that unions 09:37 could be a problem toward, you know, 09:40 the crisis at the end of time. 09:43 As well as that, we have a deeply 09:45 held principled objection to unions. 09:49 So therefore we look at unions, 09:51 do you see any union difficulties 09:54 increasing or decreasing? 09:55 What's the dynamic in our days of unions? 09:58 And I ask this question I'm sorry to interrupt 09:59 as an Australian, 10:00 I think unions are weak in the United States. 10:02 Well, there is no question there-- 10:04 They're nothing to what they could be. 10:05 And labor movement has always been 10:07 weaken in United States as compared to Europe 10:09 and other parts. 10:10 Unions are not stronger in United States 10:12 I don't see them as a group becoming more strong. 10:16 I mean, as we move to more global economy that just, 10:19 you know, there has been to many industries 10:22 that have been heavily unionized that have been decimated 10:25 and there is just a reluctance I think, 10:26 I mean, you know, perfect example of this 10:28 is Interstate Bakeries which, you know, 10:30 made Twinkies and so forth. I mean their labor union 10:33 literally drove them out of business, 10:34 they refused to compromise. 10:36 Now the union says well, management mismanaged 10:38 which is probably true. 10:39 But one of those unions, you know, 10:42 and that's gonna be a showing effect on employees, 10:44 I mean, you know, taking a pay cut 10:45 wouldn't have been good, but you know, 10:47 no paycheck is not better. 10:48 I never thought about it. 10:50 I'm not so sure I believe the superficial new story 10:54 but on the face of it, union in transcendence 10:57 let directly to closing that business. 10:59 And it doesn't really and I'm not saying, 11:00 you know, I'm sure there's people out there 11:02 and union members who would disagree 11:03 with that strongly right or wrong 11:05 that is certainly the perception, that's a story-- 11:09 And that is going to, I think that's gonna hurt, 11:11 you know, a very weak labor market-- 11:13 labor union market and that just make it even weaker. 11:15 There's a couple of exceptions to it. 11:17 Government unions are little stronger now 11:19 and have been growing. 11:20 Also some healthcare unions have been growing. 11:24 But generally union membership 11:25 in the United States is moving downward. 11:29 So you would expect less union 11:31 related issues with accommodation-- 11:34 Yeah, well, to the extent yes, 11:36 to the extent that's causing a problem 11:38 that that issue has been decreasing 11:39 as they become smaller part of the workforce. 11:41 Well, that's a good sign. 11:42 Then recently the U.S. Postal Service 11:47 announced that they were ceasing 11:49 regular mail deliveries on Saturday, 11:51 although these parcel deliveries and other services. 11:54 But we've had a lot of issues 11:56 with accommodation in the postal service. 11:58 So this mean that should 12:01 move to a much lower level for accommodation -- 12:04 We are hopeful I mean, we'll see I mean, 12:06 they are not ending Saturday delivering until August 12:08 and there is some rumblings about trying to stop 12:10 the post office from doing that. 12:12 And we got to see exactly how they got to implement it. 12:14 But it is true that we've had more problems 12:16 and more members fired from the post office 12:18 than in the single employer. 12:20 And to give you a example 12:21 how hard it can be to win this cases. 12:23 The post office has never lost a religious discrimination case 12:26 in district or federal court. 12:29 That is interesting, I didn't believe in that. 12:31 Yeah. Well, we got lot to talk about here 12:33 and we closed to the halfway point 12:35 so let's take a break for a bit. 12:37 Please come back after that break 12:39 and we'll continue discussion with Todd McFarland 12:41 about religious accommodation issues in the workplace. |
Revised 2014-12-17