Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a
program that brings you
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news, views, and discussion,
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and some insight on
religious liberty issues
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Todd McFarland,
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Associate General Council
of the General Conference.
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I was gonna say Esquire.
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We have a common friend
that always puts the Esquire
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after his name as the lawyer.
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That is not me.
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No, but I certainly
respect your legal opinion
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and what you're
doing as general council
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and the big part of
what you do in association
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with our
religious liberty workers
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as you're involved often
directly in the legal cases
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of defending people
for Sabbath accommodation
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and religious
issues in the workplace.
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Right.
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You know, I travel
around a lot as you do
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talking to mostly church
members about religious liberty.
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And there's a wonderful
theology of religious liberty.
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There's a good
historic background we can give.
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A lot of legal president
but for many of these members
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I believe the nitty-gritty
of it is will they be defended
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if there's a
problem with their faith.
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Right.
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Have you got any
idea of how many times
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we church in North
America is legally involved
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in defending cases like this?
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And maybe put
it into perspective
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as oppose to the
times there's issues,
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but, you know, how many of them
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go to a legal confrontation?
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Well, the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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will just provide
support to its members
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and others on religious
liberty issues in the workplace.
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Of course, it doesn't
file all the lawsuits,
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there are fair number of members
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who either you
see will help them
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or they find on lawyers.
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That's what I wanted
to sort of get through
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because it can be
misleading I think,
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you know to say,
just making up a number,
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say there were
100 cases this year
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that really won't tell
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the picture of
activity in this whole area.
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Yeah, I mean,
first of all if for us
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to file 100 cases would be,
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in a year would be a
exponential increase.
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We filed really this on average
three to five new cases a year.
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We do know, for instance
the EEOC keeps track of.
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Yeah, this is?
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Yeah, the Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission
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is the governmental
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and in charge of
enforcing employment laws
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and you have to filed you
claim with them to begin with.
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They keep track of
the different categories
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and we do know
that religion cases
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are only about little over
3% of all employment cases.
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So it is really a
narrow niche, in fact,
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you know, we retain
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and I work with
local employment lawyers
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and most of them
have had no religion cases
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in their career and
maybe one or two at the most.
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But I keep coming back
to qualifying it this way.
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I'm an editor of a magazine
obviously Liberty magazine.
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We send it out to
nearly 200,000 readers.
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I believe they read it,
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but I don't get
that many letters back.
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And when I get a letter,
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it means a lot to and I
sort of write that larger
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and I do
believe it has to be so,
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you know, the church may
take only a handful of cases
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usually to prove a point.
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I mean, that's an
issue that's important to us
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not just that here's the case
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and then down
the line even letters
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that are written or
to an employer and so on.
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I have to believe that
there's a lot of people of faith
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that had issues
in the workplace,
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but at different
levels they don't--
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they either get settled
there and they don't come on up.
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So we got any feel the way,
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you know, what
could you say about
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the overall issue like
you're saying the EEOC,
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what's that 3%? Right.
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Couldn't that be a
little bit like unemployment,
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you know, they quote
the unemployment figures.
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We know there are
massive amount of people
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that don't even go on
the unemployment rolls.
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One reason or another,
they just don't show up,
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they drop out, or they are
self-sufficient or whatever.
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Well, yeah, I mean,
not everyone is going
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to follow charge
of discrimination--
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That's my point.
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Who had a
problem with workplace.
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That's quite a foremost process,
isn't it? It is, it's a pretty--
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It's a process people
design to do on their own.
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I mean, it's the
best cage we have,
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you know, is do
we have an absolute
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number of the people who
have problems in the workplace
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and the answer that is no.
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But we do know its--
first of all since September 11,
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it's been a growing field
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and that we're
pretty confident of.
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And second it is
a minority of cases,
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I mean people have
more of a gender problem
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or race claim in the
workplace than they do religion.
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And that, you know, I'm
pretty confidently saying.
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Yeah, you could tell
proportionally--Right.
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You know,
obviously that's reassurance,
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so it's not a massive problem
but it is a continuing issue.
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Well, I will see this
another sort of gauge this is,
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maybe in formal gauge is,
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you know, whom we
meet with church members
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and like you do in a weekend
or I do sometimes as well.
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Often I ask people in the group,
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you know, how many here
who ever had a Sabbath problem.
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And of course it's
a self selected group,
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I mean you can't
extrapolate from that too much.
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But the vast majority of members
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really have never had
a direct Sabbath problem.
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And that's due to
a couple of things.
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One, education, it
will make a huge difference
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usually the
higher level of education
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you have the less likely are.
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And then second,
the type of industry
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and where you're working.
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Well, yes I was
gonna say the same thing.
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And I remember very
clearly going to one meeting
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where people were discussion
problems and all the rest.
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And rather I typically
this woman doctor jumped up
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and she says, you know,
you're talking about this,
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she says, I have
massive problems.
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She says, I lost
$500,000 a year practice
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because of
religious discrimination
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and I had to
move and go elsewhere.
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And she got no pity from the,
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you know, the
hotel workers and so.
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Yes. And the Wal-Mart employees
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there they were complaining.
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But the reality is she admitted
that she is more mobile.
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If she doesn't like
it, if there is some issue,
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she just moves and gets another
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maybe not equally good job
but she is not as effected by.
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So it's the person
with lower education,
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lower income
person, minority perhaps,
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they are very vulnerable.
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And I think there
is a significant number
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of Seventh-day Adventists
that meet those criteria
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that have a lot of problems
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and we don't
always hear about them.
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No, and we don't and, you know,
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there is also
regional differences
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as far as how
strong the programs
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we have in
different parts of the country
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stronger than others.
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It's, you know,
it's a, you know,
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the only thing we can do
is continue try to promote it,
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enough people have
problems they should contact
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their
Seventh-day Adventist pastor
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and then they can go up,
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it goes up
provincially to the union.
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They can call to the
General Conference if they want.
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We'll refer him
to the right person.
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You just call the general number
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and ask to speak
to myself or you know,
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your religious liberty issue
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and it will get
final to the right person.
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I mean, our system
is pretty good about,
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if you contact
somebody in religious liberty,
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it's gonna get
to the right person.
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Right, we have a
mechanism, you're right.
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And even if they
can't do our liberty website
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libertymagazine.org
we would pass it on.
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Yes. And I get
those from Morassi,
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your colleague all the time.
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Yeah, yeah. Well, she is the--
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well, they come to
me, my email is the--
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And I've passed a couple
of interesting ones on too.
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But it is
reassuring on one level
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and I just want to balance it.
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I'm always the
flip flop, you know,
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it's bad and yet not so bad.
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It's not huge numbers
that go the full distance,
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but I do think
there's a significant
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and maybe even
growing number of people
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on the vulnerable
edges of the labor market
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that is not going
away anytime soon.
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No, it's not and things
have sort of contributed
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this is one like 24/7 economy.
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I mean, so its work is
workplaces feel the need
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to increase efficiency
to work their workforce
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more to service
their costumers more
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which means
working in to the weekend
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which means working into
the Sabbath for Adventist
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and other people.
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That's gonna
create more complex.
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There's also
ironically the whole HR push
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which has happened in the last,
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you know, some
employment rights pushing now.
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It used to be labor
unions and then in 70, 80s
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we started having
what's known as employment law.
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You know, the sort of
the mantra of employment law
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generally is, you know,
treat everyone the same,
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do the same thing for everyone.
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Which is just the exact opposite
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what needs to happen
in the accommodation case.
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That's true yeah, yeah.
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So it's time you find the HR,
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you know, human
resources managers,
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you know, don't
want to do anything,
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'cause they're
afraid of you know,
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discriminating
against other employees.
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And union concern even though
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Seventh-day Adventists
are not usually in the union,
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they subject to the seniority
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and other
conditions of the union
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that can sort of
get in the way of them,
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getting
something that the others
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are not seen as getting.
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Yeah, it is-- The accommodation.
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Right. It is
true that while unions
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can't under the
right circumstances
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provide employ
protections in other contexts.
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If you either have a disability
or religious accommodation,
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either one of
those unions are usually
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not going to be a--
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and it's not gonna
be to your benefit,
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because, you know,
they are more about
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treating everyone the same
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and not making in--
by seniority as a person
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doing something
different for a person
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so they can keep
the job in their favor.
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Yes, now Seventh-day Adventist
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have a particular
viewpoint on unions
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that mixes an
understanding of prophecy.
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I'm hesitating to
say it for what it is.
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But you know,
we've been led to believe
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by some Biblical evidence
and modeling that unions
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could be a
problem toward, you know,
00:09:37.73\00:09:40.44
the crisis at the end of time.
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As well as
that, we have a deeply
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held principled
objection to unions.
00:09:45.29\00:09:49.50
So therefore we look at unions,
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do you see any
union difficulties
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increasing or decreasing?
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What's the dynamic
in our days of unions?
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And I ask this
question I'm sorry to interrupt
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as an Australian,
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I think unions are
weak in the United States.
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Well, there is
no question there--
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They're nothing to
what they could be.
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And labor
movement has always been
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weaken in United
States as compared to Europe
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and other parts.
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Unions are not
stronger in United States
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I don't see them as a
group becoming more strong.
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I mean, as we move to
more global economy that just,
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you know, there has
been to many industries
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that have been heavily unionized
that have been decimated
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and there is just
a reluctance I think,
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I mean, you know,
perfect example of this
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is Interstate
Bakeries which, you know,
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made Twinkies and so
forth. I mean their labor union
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literally drove
them out of business,
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they refused to compromise.
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Now the union says
well, management mismanaged
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which is probably true.
00:10:38.63\00:10:39.74
But one of those
unions, you know,
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and that's gonna be a
showing effect on employees,
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I mean, you
know, taking a pay cut
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wouldn't have been
good, but you know,
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no paycheck is not better.
00:10:47.81\00:10:48.84
I never thought about it.
00:10:48.87\00:10:50.82
I'm not so sure I believe
the superficial new story
00:10:50.85\00:10:54.86
but on the face of
it, union in transcendence
00:10:54.89\00:10:57.69
let directly to
closing that business.
00:10:57.72\00:10:59.52
And it doesn't
really and I'm not saying,
00:10:59.55\00:11:00.71
you know, I'm sure
there's people out there
00:11:00.74\00:11:02.04
and union members
who would disagree
00:11:02.07\00:11:03.52
with that
strongly right or wrong
00:11:03.55\00:11:05.51
that is certainly the
perception, that's a story--
00:11:05.54\00:11:09.18
And that is going to, I
think that's gonna hurt,
00:11:09.21\00:11:11.27
you know, a very
weak labor market--
00:11:11.30\00:11:13.06
labor union market and
that just make it even weaker.
00:11:13.09\00:11:15.48
There's a couple
of exceptions to it.
00:11:15.51\00:11:17.34
Government unions
are little stronger now
00:11:17.37\00:11:19.60
and have been growing.
00:11:19.63\00:11:20.66
Also some healthcare
unions have been growing.
00:11:20.69\00:11:24.25
But generally union membership
00:11:24.28\00:11:25.73
in the United
States is moving downward.
00:11:25.76\00:11:29.15
So you would expect less union
00:11:29.18\00:11:31.45
related issues
with accommodation--
00:11:31.48\00:11:34.39
Yeah, well, to the extent yes,
00:11:34.42\00:11:36.60
to the extent
that's causing a problem
00:11:36.63\00:11:38.21
that that issue
has been decreasing
00:11:38.24\00:11:39.96
as they become
smaller part of the workforce.
00:11:39.99\00:11:41.30
Well, that's a good sign.
00:11:41.33\00:11:42.37
Then recently the
U.S. Postal Service
00:11:42.40\00:11:47.04
announced that they were ceasing
00:11:47.07\00:11:49.03
regular mail
deliveries on Saturday,
00:11:49.06\00:11:51.91
although these parcel
deliveries and other services.
00:11:51.94\00:11:54.62
But we've had a lot of issues
00:11:54.65\00:11:56.69
with accommodation
in the postal service.
00:11:56.72\00:11:58.73
So this mean that should
00:11:58.76\00:12:01.95
move to a much lower
level for accommodation --
00:12:01.98\00:12:04.41
We are hopeful I
mean, we'll see I mean,
00:12:04.44\00:12:06.09
they are not ending
Saturday delivering until August
00:12:06.12\00:12:08.28
and there is some
rumblings about trying to stop
00:12:08.31\00:12:10.34
the post office from doing that.
00:12:10.37\00:12:12.35
And we got to see exactly
how they got to implement it.
00:12:12.38\00:12:14.59
But it is true that
we've had more problems
00:12:14.62\00:12:16.90
and more members
fired from the post office
00:12:16.93\00:12:18.72
than in the single employer.
00:12:18.75\00:12:20.38
And to give you a example
00:12:20.41\00:12:21.44
how hard it can
be to win this cases.
00:12:21.47\00:12:23.23
The post office has never lost
a religious discrimination case
00:12:23.26\00:12:26.91
in district or federal court.
00:12:26.94\00:12:29.24
That is interesting, I
didn't believe in that.
00:12:29.27\00:12:31.14
Yeah. Well, we got
lot to talk about here
00:12:31.17\00:12:33.64
and we closed to
the halfway point
00:12:33.67\00:12:35.65
so let's take a break for a bit.
00:12:35.68\00:12:37.80
Please come
back after that break
00:12:37.83\00:12:39.47
and we'll continue
discussion with Todd McFarland
00:12:39.50\00:12:41.92
about religious accommodation
issues in the workplace.
00:12:41.95\00:12:45.49