Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000208B
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00:06 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:08 Before the break with guest Todd McFarland, 00:11 we were talking about the trademark case 00:14 in the Adventist church, but on a large stage, 00:18 you know, why would a church or a church member use the law? 00:22 And of course, the law has pulled in. 00:25 I think you cited it once on another program, 00:27 we did another time. 00:29 You know, there were laws that citizenship 00:32 before used freely. 00:33 As long as they enabled his Christian witness, 00:35 some are on contradiction use the laws. 00:37 The law is not wrong. 00:39 I want to just bring something up 00:41 and you're not super familiar with this. 00:44 It was another time, another place. 00:46 When I was in Australia during many of the years 00:50 of the Chamberlain case, there Lindy Chamberlain, 00:54 the wife of the Seventh-day Adventist pastor, 00:56 she and her husband were camping out in the desert 00:59 and a dingo took their child. 01:01 Incredible tragedy. 01:04 Just to be clear, Americans may know this. 01:05 I mean, unfortunately, it's almost become a joke 01:08 in the United States, because of a Seinfeld episode. 01:10 Yes. 01:12 No, but that phrase, "A dingo ate my baby," 01:14 I mean, you know, it's a very disrespectable show. 01:17 It was a funny show too, but, that was of course-- 01:19 They trivialized it. They trivialized it. 01:20 A very real bizarre tragedy. 01:23 Yeah, and of course those characters, 01:25 you know, were known for that. 01:26 But any way that phrase that Americans 01:28 may know comes from this very real tragedy. 01:32 I'm sorry. 01:33 And without president there will be no case, 01:36 other than a dingo nipping at someone's heels 01:38 perhaps were to really attack or never eaten a child. 01:42 At first people were sympathetic and then 01:45 different behaviors and things that happened into that. 01:48 She was on trail for murder 01:50 and was convicted and sent to jail. 01:54 Since her husband was a minister of the church, 01:56 naturally felt responsible 01:58 even though it didn't happen in the course of his work. 02:00 They are on vacation. 02:02 And another makes an illegal difference, 02:03 but that was not a direct church implication 02:07 and the church backed them very well. 02:08 The membership thought well of them. 02:13 They were not accusing them 02:14 and the church made I think a pivotal mistake. 02:18 They became in essence their legal council, 02:21 rather than through insurance or even direct church funds, 02:26 reimbursed them for hiring lawyers or whatever. 02:28 They hired the lawyers. 02:30 They advised the lawyers rather than 02:32 the Chamberlain's having lawyers. 02:33 And so this case advanced. 02:36 The up's and down's and the incredible 02:38 anti-Chamberlain opinion in the community, 02:41 the church saw it all as an attack on it. 02:44 Well, I think, there was 02:45 and I was not in Australia at that time. 02:47 I believe from talking to people who were there. 02:49 There was a lot of feeling that it wasn't just 02:51 that these were people who a woman had killed her baby, 02:54 who just happened to be an Adventist 02:55 like she might be Catholic or Baptist 02:57 or whatever the government 02:58 or religions are there in Australia. 03:00 It was a feeling. 03:02 There was very much a connection 03:03 that she may have done this 03:04 for religious reasons or these people were wackos 03:06 as far as being Adventist or there was 03:08 within the mind of the community, 03:09 I believe, at least the leadership 03:11 at that time felt there was 03:12 that the community had tied them in and that-- 03:15 That's the half truth. Right. 03:17 And I know that you disagree with some people 03:18 who were there in Australian as well. 03:20 I know what you are saying, 03:21 but what happened was early on a newspaper reporter 03:24 like they always do it, you do it with the newspaper, 03:27 they hardly ever get it straight. 03:29 And so a cub reporter basically looked up 03:32 the meaning of the child's name Azaria 03:36 and got it mixed up with the Azazel, 03:39 which means a sacrifice in the wilderness 03:40 and they came up with a offensively story 03:42 that the child was distinct for sacrifice. 03:45 That colored the inquest where she was cleared. 03:48 That died away. 03:50 I can't really say that there was much public discussion 03:54 after the Adventists disrupt, aberrant religious practices. 04:01 The negative is what I want to bring out. 04:04 By the Church defending this woman who is vilified 04:06 personally and the end novice of the whole country 04:10 settled on her, there's no question. 04:12 They didn't usually say because of wacky Adventist beliefs 04:15 or any thing like that. 04:17 No, it was she who has done this. 04:18 But the church persisted in using 04:21 a heavy handed legal approach to clear the way for her 04:24 and then the eye of the public would turn back 04:27 and as one newspaper article suggest 04:29 that they were like the mafia that didn't want the story out. 04:33 They took out an injunction to stop a made-for-TV film 04:37 without the Chamberlains. 04:39 They had took out several injunctions 04:41 to stop negative stories. 04:45 And again I have thought about this a lot. 04:47 They were not legally wrong whatsoever. 04:49 But I think there was an error made in seeing 04:53 that as the primary way to stop the problem rather than, 04:56 as I tried to say before the break, 04:57 I think any Christian or any religious group 05:00 should realize that they are in a public relations effort. 05:06 And it's how you relate to people, 05:07 not what rights you have and how you can win the day. 05:10 Well, and it is, you know, 05:12 it is very difficult for church leadership 05:14 when they are being attacked and things are been said 05:16 that they absolutely no and can prove or false. 05:18 I mean it's easier just to say here now, 05:20 decades later a continent, you know, 05:22 as a huge ocean removed. 05:24 You will simply say, well, 05:25 you know you should let her play out 05:27 and yell at this people. 05:28 And you know, in the long run taking an injunction 05:30 and I am not saying what they did was right. 05:32 I don't know enough about it to make an opinion. 05:34 Well, it was right legally, but it was still advised. 05:36 Well, I am not saying it was right with who all advised, 05:38 I don't know enough about it, 05:39 but I do understand how you can get them in town 05:42 is very hard to stand beside 05:45 and be falsely accused of something and not respond. 05:48 And when you have mechanisms to run United States, 05:49 you can never get injunction like that. 05:52 But, you know, when you have these tools to not use them 05:54 when you know that you are right 05:55 and you know that the other person 05:57 is just winding you and if they're if actually wrong, 05:58 it's a very hard thing to do. 06:00 Well, absolutely. This is my point. 06:01 It's not a hard and fast, but just to look at the dynamic 06:04 between a pure legal approach and a pure average approach. 06:09 And the other thing, too. Where is the middle ground? 06:10 Things don't always turn out as people intend them. 06:12 So in other words, in retrospect those leaders 06:14 might say it was the wrong thing, 06:15 but at that time it seemed like the right thing to do. 06:17 Well, I think I can share this. 06:19 I was there and I called 06:21 the communication directors together once. 06:23 And they brought in a Seventh-day Adventist 06:24 television personality, Dr. Johnny Knott. 06:27 Still alive, doing very well with, 06:30 he is a doctor but he is on television. 06:33 And I asked him as a person in the media 06:35 what they could do about this. 06:38 And he is very sort of a non-committal, 06:40 but a casual sort of guy. 06:42 And he says, well, he says, I don't know, 06:44 he says, but publicity is publicity 06:46 and I think it will all turn out right at the end. 06:50 And I think that has proven to be true. 06:53 To this date, unfortunately, 06:56 what I can read and what I hear 06:58 when I go to Australia most Australians still think 07:00 she is guilty even though she has been clearly exonerated 07:04 by the legal system and the government apologized. 07:10 You know, that didn't change much 07:14 but the Seventh-day Adventist Church 07:16 doesn't have any residual negative image 07:20 because of the Chamberlain thing. 07:22 The church is well thought of. 07:23 It really had no lasting or direct effect on the church 07:27 organization that I could ever see. 07:30 You know, that's good that has happened. 07:33 It can be a lot time to get there 07:35 and unfortunately for religious organization, 07:37 for any organization, it can be hard to know 07:40 when you are making those decisions where to draw line. 07:42 Because you have the least amount of information and, 07:44 you know, things turn out differently than you expected 07:47 so that can be a hard line to draw. 07:48 Unintended consequences. Absolutely. 07:51 I want to throw something else. 07:52 And we only have a few minutes left, 07:53 but it's connected in my mind. 07:57 In many countries around the world, 07:59 the Seventh-day Adventist Church as well as other 08:01 organizations suffer a sort of persecution 08:06 when the country refuses to recognize them. 08:09 There may be a registration process and some churches 08:12 that are thought well are automatically 08:14 get registered or formally acknowledge 08:17 and on occasion will be not registered. 08:21 Sometimes we've been registered 08:22 in other minor churches like Jehovah-- 08:25 Smaller. Smaller or not. 08:28 What do you think about that? 08:29 Is it important that we be-- that we come up to this 08:33 legal standard or we do what we do regardless? 08:36 Well, it is important depending on the country. 08:39 So for instance we got deregistered in Hungary 08:41 recently and we got registered. 08:43 Unfortunately, if you are not registered 08:45 it's illegal for you to meet as a church. 08:47 It's illegal for you to carry any activities. 08:50 The consequences of being not registered. 08:52 And imagine how difficult it is to evangelize 08:54 and to carry on your mission, 08:55 if even your mere existence is illegal. 08:58 So, I mean, in a perfect world 09:00 you wouldn't have to get registered. 09:02 But the reality is in almost every country 09:04 there is some type of registration process. 09:06 Remind you even in United States, 09:09 while you don't have to be registered to be a church, 09:11 and just a pure local church 09:13 is automatically an exempt organization, 09:14 the Seventh-day Adventist church going back into the 1950s, 09:18 has a tax exemption organizational 09:19 letter from the IRS. 09:21 You could call that a type of governmental registration. 09:24 So, you know there is some requirements to do that 09:27 and I know when I first heard about the church doing that. 09:29 I was like, that's really right. 09:31 So we should be asking the government permission 09:33 you know, to carry on our mission. 09:34 So you had the same thought? Yeah. But when you look-- 09:35 I mean at this stage I am comfortable, 09:37 I think we need to be registered 09:38 because it's a defect persecution when you are not. 09:41 But a lot of people, I think must have 09:43 this sense of ambiguity about it. 09:45 Can you explain about that? 09:47 And in many countries, especially like 09:48 Western-European countries you have to be registered. 09:50 There are certain benefits you get 09:51 and it's a very just sort of administrative process. 09:53 You go down. You fill up the right paperwork, 09:55 everyone gets it. 09:57 Where this reversion money goes to the church? Right. 10:00 But I know that the Lutheran church 10:02 get money in Germany as part of the tax receipts. 10:05 But is it only the Lutheran or all organizations? 10:08 I think other religious organizations do, 10:09 I don't know enough of that in particular, but no, 10:12 in many countries, you know, 10:14 the government will use money to support religion. 10:17 Now we're little uncomfortable with the whole word 10:18 of separation of church and state. 10:20 How many Americans insist? 10:21 But first remembering that primarily 10:23 that's an American legal system, 10:25 we can look to the Bible 10:27 and find a good backup with the Bible. 10:29 You can also show going into the Old Testament, 10:33 a true religion is to be incorporated into the state. 10:37 Where our argument goes 10:39 and I like to see this all the time, 10:40 the safety in a good separation of church and state, 10:44 but it's primarily a constitutional model, isn't it? 10:48 It is. And there's also a model of this whole idea 10:51 that we are separate from the government 10:54 and shouldn't take government benefits 10:55 or take government subsidies, 10:56 is a very American idea even within Adventist Churches, 10:59 other parts in the world in which we do see. 11:00 Well, even in Canada, 11:02 even in the same division, the same church. 11:03 Of course, we end up losing our schools up there 11:05 eventually and of course-- 11:06 Well, we had progress on this that the dynamic is not good, 11:10 and we have lost schools because of that. 11:12 Yeah, but you know and talking about 11:14 these issues of religious liberty, 11:15 you know it can be very difficult 11:17 in knowing how to defend an organization. 11:19 What steps to take? What do you do? 11:22 That we need to defend our church. Right. 11:24 And as a religious organization and knowing 11:26 when to defend it, there is no clear line. 11:28 There is no bright line. 11:30 There is no right answer that's apparent. 11:32 That's why as religious leaders 11:33 and church leaders, we pray about this. 11:35 We see God's guidance and we hope and pray 11:38 that our things will work out ultimately 11:40 in defending His name and defending His church. 11:43 As someone who does more than a fare share of driving, 11:47 since I commute a total of about 150 miles a day to work, 11:53 something I should never have done, 11:55 I can let you I read more than my fresh air of bumper stickers. 11:59 I can't even repeat some of them. 12:01 A lot of them are political, or candidates long gone, 12:05 campaigns long last, but one bumper sticker 12:08 that I see regularly from time to time 12:10 is that very abstract fish shape 12:15 and when I see that I know that that person wants 12:17 to tell me that they are Christian. 12:20 I wish I could say there is a clear correlation 12:23 between the bumper sticker and how the car behaves. 12:26 But I have seen as many cases of road rage 12:28 and just playing traffic obstruction 12:31 with those bumper stickers as any other car. 12:34 And it's reminded me that it's fine into brand yourself, 12:38 sometimes maybe even necessary 12:40 because I would never advocate for a Christian to be secretive. 12:44 You should be very upfront about our faith. 12:46 But the ultimate vindication of our behavior 12:49 is not whether we have the fish sign on your bumper or not. 12:53 It's whether we have a faith prospective inside us 12:57 is correct and we all end up toward God. 13:00 And that in all of our behavior we reflect the behavior, 13:04 the attitudes that God expects of a follower. 13:08 That is the bottom line 13:10 and that is the determiner of the Christian commitment. 13:15 For "Liberty Insider", this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17