Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
with guest Todd McFarland,
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we were talking
about the trademark case
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in the Adventist
church, but on a large stage,
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you know, why would a church
or a church member use the law?
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And of course,
the law has pulled in.
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I think you cited it
once on another program,
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we did another time.
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You know, there were
laws that citizenship
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before used freely.
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As long as they
enabled his Christian witness,
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some are on
contradiction use the laws.
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The law is not wrong.
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I want to just
bring something up
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and you're not
super familiar with this.
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It was another
time, another place.
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When I was in Australia
during many of the years
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of the Chamberlain
case, there Lindy Chamberlain,
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the wife of the
Seventh-day Adventist pastor,
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she and her husband were
camping out in the desert
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and a dingo took their child.
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Incredible tragedy.
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Just to be clear,
Americans may know this.
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I mean, unfortunately,
it's almost become a joke
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in the United States,
because of a Seinfeld episode.
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Yes.
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No, but that phrase,
"A dingo ate my baby,"
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I mean, you know, it's a
very disrespectable show.
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It was a funny show too,
but, that was of course--
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They trivialized
it. They trivialized it.
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A very real bizarre tragedy.
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Yeah, and of
course those characters,
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you know, were known for that.
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But any way that
phrase that Americans
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may know comes from
this very real tragedy.
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I'm sorry.
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And without president
there will be no case,
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other than a dingo
nipping at someone's heels
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perhaps were to really
attack or never eaten a child.
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At first people
were sympathetic and then
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different behaviors and
things that happened into that.
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She was on trail for murder
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and was
convicted and sent to jail.
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Since her husband was
a minister of the church,
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naturally felt responsible
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even though it didn't happen
in the course of his work.
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They are on vacation.
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And another makes
an illegal difference,
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but that was not a
direct church implication
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and the church
backed them very well.
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The membership
thought well of them.
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They were not accusing them
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and the church made I
think a pivotal mistake.
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They became in
essence their legal council,
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rather than through insurance
or even direct church funds,
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reimbursed them for
hiring lawyers or whatever.
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They hired the lawyers.
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They advised the
lawyers rather than
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the
Chamberlain's having lawyers.
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And so this case advanced.
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The up's and
down's and the incredible
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anti-Chamberlain
opinion in the community,
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the church saw it
all as an attack on it.
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Well, I think, there was
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and I was not in
Australia at that time.
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I believe from talking
to people who were there.
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There was a lot of
feeling that it wasn't just
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that these were people who
a woman had killed her baby,
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who just happened
to be an Adventist
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like she might be
Catholic or Baptist
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or whatever the government
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or religions are
there in Australia.
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It was a feeling.
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There was very much a connection
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that she may have done this
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for religious reasons
or these people were wackos
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as far as being
Adventist or there was
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within the mind
of the community,
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I believe, at
least the leadership
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at that time felt there was
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that the community had
tied them in and that--
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That's the half truth. Right.
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And I know that you
disagree with some people
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who were there in
Australian as well.
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I know what you are saying,
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but what happened was
early on a newspaper reporter
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like they always do it,
you do it with the newspaper,
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they hardly
ever get it straight.
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And so a cub
reporter basically looked up
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the meaning of the
child's name Azaria
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and got it mixed
up with the Azazel,
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which means a
sacrifice in the wilderness
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and they came up
with a offensively story
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that the child was
distinct for sacrifice.
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That colored the
inquest where she was cleared.
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That died away.
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I can't really say that
there was much public discussion
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after the Adventists disrupt,
aberrant religious practices.
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The negative is
what I want to bring out.
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By the Church defending
this woman who is vilified
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personally and the end
novice of the whole country
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settled on her,
there's no question.
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They didn't usually say because
of wacky Adventist beliefs
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or any thing like that.
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No, it was she
who has done this.
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But the church
persisted in using
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a heavy handed legal approach
to clear the way for her
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and then the eye of
the public would turn back
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and as one
newspaper article suggest
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that they were like the mafia
that didn't want the story out.
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They took out an injunction
to stop a made-for-TV film
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without the Chamberlains.
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They had took out
several injunctions
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to stop negative stories.
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And again I have
thought about this a lot.
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They were not
legally wrong whatsoever.
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But I think there was
an error made in seeing
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that as the primary way to
stop the problem rather than,
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as I tried to
say before the break,
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I think any Christian
or any religious group
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should realize that they are
in a public relations effort.
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And it's how you
relate to people,
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not what rights you have
and how you can win the day.
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Well, and it is, you know,
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it is very difficult
for church leadership
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when they are being attacked
and things are been said
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that they absolutely
no and can prove or false.
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I mean it's easier
just to say here now,
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decades later a
continent, you know,
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as a huge ocean removed.
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You will simply say, well,
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you know you
should let her play out
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and yell at this people.
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And you know, in the
long run taking an injunction
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and I am not saying
what they did was right.
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I don't know enough
about it to make an opinion.
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Well, it was right legally,
but it was still advised.
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Well, I am not saying it
was right with who all advised,
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I don't know enough about it,
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but I do understand how
you can get them in town
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is very hard to stand beside
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and be falsely accused of
something and not respond.
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And when you have
mechanisms to run United States,
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you can never get
injunction like that.
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But, you know, when you
have these tools to not use them
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when you know that you are right
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and you know
that the other person
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is just winding you and
if they're if actually wrong,
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it's a very hard thing to do.
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Well,
absolutely. This is my point.
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It's not a hard and fast,
but just to look at the dynamic
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between a pure legal approach
and a pure average approach.
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And the other thing, too.
Where is the middle ground?
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Things don't always turn
out as people intend them.
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So in other words, in
retrospect those leaders
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might say it
was the wrong thing,
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but at that time it seemed
like the right thing to do.
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Well, I think I can share this.
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I was there and I called
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the communication
directors together once.
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And they brought in
a Seventh-day Adventist
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television
personality, Dr. Johnny Knott.
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Still alive,
doing very well with,
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he is a doctor but
he is on television.
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And I asked him as
a person in the media
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what they could do about this.
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And he is very
sort of a non-committal,
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but a casual sort of guy.
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And he says, well,
he says, I don't know,
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he says, but
publicity is publicity
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and I think it will all
turn out right at the end.
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And I think that
has proven to be true.
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To this date, unfortunately,
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what I can read and what I hear
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when I go to Australia
most Australians still think
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she is guilty even though
she has been clearly exonerated
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by the legal system and
the government apologized.
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You know, that
didn't change much
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but the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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doesn't have any
residual negative image
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because of the
Chamberlain thing.
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The church is well thought of.
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It really had no lasting
or direct effect on the church
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organization
that I could ever see.
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You know, that's
good that has happened.
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It can be a lot
time to get there
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and unfortunately for
religious organization,
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for any organization,
it can be hard to know
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when you are making those
decisions where to draw line.
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Because you have the
least amount of information and,
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you know, things turn out
differently than you expected
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so that can be a
hard line to draw.
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Unintended
consequences. Absolutely.
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I want to throw something else.
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And we only have
a few minutes left,
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but it's connected in my mind.
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In many
countries around the world,
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the Seventh-day Adventist
Church as well as other
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organizations suffer
a sort of persecution
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when the country
refuses to recognize them.
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There may be a registration
process and some churches
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that are thought
well are automatically
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get registered or
formally acknowledge
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and on occasion
will be not registered.
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Sometimes we've been registered
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in other minor
churches like Jehovah--
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Smaller. Smaller or not.
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What do you think about that?
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Is it important that we
be-- that we come up to this
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legal standard or we
do what we do regardless?
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Well, it is important
depending on the country.
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So for instance we got
deregistered in Hungary
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recently and we got registered.
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Unfortunately, if
you are not registered
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it's illegal for
you to meet as a church.
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It's illegal for you
to carry any activities.
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The consequences of
being not registered.
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And imagine how
difficult it is to evangelize
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and to carry on your mission,
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if even your mere
existence is illegal.
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So, I mean, in a perfect world
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you wouldn't have
to get registered.
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But the reality is
in almost every country
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there is some type
of registration process.
00:09:04.26\00:09:06.43
Remind you even
in United States,
00:09:06.46\00:09:09.21
while you don't have to
be registered to be a church,
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and just a pure local church
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is automatically an
exempt organization,
00:09:13.15\00:09:14.69
the Seventh-day Adventist church
going back into the 1950s,
00:09:14.72\00:09:18.08
has a tax
exemption organizational
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letter from the IRS.
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You could call that a type
of governmental registration.
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So, you know there is
some requirements to do that
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and I know when I first heard
about the church doing that.
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I was like, that's really right.
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So we should be asking
the government permission
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you know, to
carry on our mission.
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So you had the same thought?
Yeah. But when you look--
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I mean at this
stage I am comfortable,
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I think we need to be registered
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because it's a defect
persecution when you are not.
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But a lot of
people, I think must have
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this sense of
ambiguity about it.
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Can you explain about that?
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And in many
countries, especially like
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Western-European countries
you have to be registered.
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There are
certain benefits you get
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and it's a very just sort
of administrative process.
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You go down. You fill
up the right paperwork,
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everyone gets it.
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Where this reversion
money goes to the church? Right.
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But I know that
the Lutheran church
00:10:00.21\00:10:02.36
get money in Germany as
part of the tax receipts.
00:10:02.39\00:10:05.96
But is it only the
Lutheran or all organizations?
00:10:05.99\00:10:08.05
I think other
religious organizations do,
00:10:08.08\00:10:09.81
I don't know enough of
that in particular, but no,
00:10:09.84\00:10:12.67
in many countries, you know,
00:10:12.70\00:10:14.58
the government will use
money to support religion.
00:10:14.61\00:10:17.27
Now we're little uncomfortable
with the whole word
00:10:17.30\00:10:18.80
of separation of
church and state.
00:10:18.83\00:10:20.20
How many Americans insist?
00:10:20.23\00:10:21.60
But first
remembering that primarily
00:10:21.63\00:10:23.09
that's an American legal system,
00:10:23.12\00:10:25.59
we can look to the Bible
00:10:25.62\00:10:26.99
and find a good
backup with the Bible.
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You can also show
going into the Old Testament,
00:10:29.97\00:10:33.77
a true religion is to be
incorporated into the state.
00:10:33.80\00:10:37.82
Where our argument goes
00:10:37.85\00:10:39.25
and I like to see
this all the time,
00:10:39.28\00:10:40.65
the safety in a good
separation of church and state,
00:10:40.68\00:10:44.96
but it's primarily a
constitutional model, isn't it?
00:10:44.99\00:10:47.99
It is. And there's also
a model of this whole idea
00:10:48.02\00:10:51.13
that we are
separate from the government
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and shouldn't take
government benefits
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or take government subsidies,
00:10:55.50\00:10:56.87
is a very American idea
even within Adventist Churches,
00:10:56.90\00:10:59.29
other parts in the
world in which we do see.
00:10:59.32\00:11:00.69
Well, even in Canada,
00:11:00.72\00:11:02.09
even in the same
division, the same church.
00:11:02.12\00:11:03.49
Of course, we end up
losing our schools up there
00:11:03.52\00:11:05.23
eventually and of course--
00:11:05.26\00:11:06.63
Well, we had progress on this
that the dynamic is not good,
00:11:06.66\00:11:10.85
and we have lost
schools because of that.
00:11:10.88\00:11:12.60
Yeah, but you
know and talking about
00:11:12.63\00:11:14.00
these issues of
religious liberty,
00:11:14.03\00:11:15.64
you know it can
be very difficult
00:11:15.67\00:11:17.13
in knowing how to
defend an organization.
00:11:17.16\00:11:19.61
What steps to
take? What do you do?
00:11:19.64\00:11:22.14
That we need to
defend our church. Right.
00:11:22.17\00:11:24.54
And as a religious
organization and knowing
00:11:24.57\00:11:26.63
when to defend it,
there is no clear line.
00:11:26.66\00:11:28.85
There is no bright line.
00:11:28.88\00:11:30.36
There is no right
answer that's apparent.
00:11:30.39\00:11:32.00
That's why as religious leaders
00:11:32.03\00:11:33.49
and church
leaders, we pray about this.
00:11:33.52\00:11:35.36
We see God's
guidance and we hope and pray
00:11:35.39\00:11:38.41
that our things
will work out ultimately
00:11:38.44\00:11:40.78
in defending His name
and defending His church.
00:11:40.81\00:11:43.78
As someone who does more
than a fare share of driving,
00:11:43.81\00:11:47.71
since I commute a total of
about 150 miles a day to work,
00:11:47.74\00:11:53.47
something I
should never have done,
00:11:53.50\00:11:55.19
I can let you I read more than
my fresh air of bumper stickers.
00:11:55.22\00:11:59.61
I can't even
repeat some of them.
00:11:59.64\00:12:01.17
A lot of them are political,
or candidates long gone,
00:12:01.20\00:12:05.10
campaigns long last,
but one bumper sticker
00:12:05.13\00:12:08.48
that I see
regularly from time to time
00:12:08.51\00:12:10.81
is that very abstract fish shape
00:12:10.84\00:12:15.39
and when I see that I
know that that person wants
00:12:15.42\00:12:17.74
to tell me that
they are Christian.
00:12:17.77\00:12:20.68
I wish I could say
there is a clear correlation
00:12:20.71\00:12:22.98
between the bumper
sticker and how the car behaves.
00:12:23.01\00:12:26.13
But I have seen as
many cases of road rage
00:12:26.16\00:12:28.91
and just playing
traffic obstruction
00:12:28.94\00:12:31.31
with those bumper
stickers as any other car.
00:12:31.34\00:12:34.45
And it's reminded me that
it's fine into brand yourself,
00:12:34.48\00:12:38.26
sometimes maybe even necessary
00:12:38.29\00:12:40.05
because I would never advocate
for a Christian to be secretive.
00:12:40.08\00:12:44.43
You should be very
upfront about our faith.
00:12:44.46\00:12:46.74
But the ultimate
vindication of our behavior
00:12:46.77\00:12:49.90
is not whether we have the
fish sign on your bumper or not.
00:12:49.93\00:12:53.36
It's whether we have a
faith prospective inside us
00:12:53.39\00:12:57.14
is correct and we
all end up toward God.
00:12:57.17\00:13:00.15
And that in all of our behavior
we reflect the behavior,
00:13:00.18\00:13:04.83
the attitudes that
God expects of a follower.
00:13:04.86\00:13:08.74
That is the bottom line
00:13:08.77\00:13:10.64
and that is the determiner
of the Christian commitment.
00:13:10.67\00:13:15.43
For "Liberty
Insider", this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:15.46\00:13:18.41