Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000208A
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00:19 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:21 This is the program that brings you up-to-date 00:23 news, views, and discussion on religious liberty events 00:27 in the United States and around the world. 00:29 My name is Lincoln Steed 00:31 and I'm editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:34 And I have a very special guest on the program, 00:36 Todd McFarland, lawyer and Associate General Counsel 00:40 for the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist. 00:43 Good to be here. 00:44 And we work very closely together, 00:46 so closely that we could sort of prod each other in ways 00:49 that I can't do with most guests 00:51 and probably get a reaction that I'll know about. 00:54 But I want to prod you a bit on this program 00:56 to discuss something that I know 00:59 some of our Adventist viewers already have views on 01:01 and I think it needs to be clarified. 01:04 Some years ago and you can give the date 01:07 and whole context, the Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:09 took out a trademark, 01:15 well, they took out a trademark on the name of the Seventh-day-- 01:16 Registered is the word. 01:18 Registered the trademark Seventh-day Adventist 01:20 and there have been some developments in recent years 01:22 that get people all riled up thinking that the church 01:25 is doing something inappropriate, 01:26 illegal which is not we can discuss that. 01:28 But what's going on here? 01:30 Why, how, and for what purpose? 01:34 Well, the purpose is the Adventist Church 01:36 wants to keep the name Seventh-day Adventist 01:38 and Adventist to be unique. 01:39 The Adventist Church believes itself 01:41 they've a unique message 01:42 and if people see the name Adventists 01:44 or the Seventh-day Adventists 01:46 we want them to associate that with one church. 01:48 The reality is the term Baptists and Methodists 01:51 and Catholic or what in law, you know, there's generic 01:53 which means you could go out tomorrow 01:55 and start a Baptist church. 01:58 And actually you wouldn't have to do anything. 02:01 You could call your church, the first Baptist church 02:03 and you could teach out of the Quran on it. 02:06 And there would be nothing to stop anyone. 02:08 So in other words when you see the name Baptist, 02:10 it tells you really absolutely nothing. 02:13 It's usually only part of another line 02:15 like the Southern Baptist or whatever. 02:17 Now Southern Baptist is trademarked 02:18 and that does tell you something. 02:20 That's specific. 02:21 But if you just see the name Baptist 02:22 that's tells you really absolutely nothing 02:24 about what that church teaches. 02:26 So it's the full name Seventh-day Adventists. 02:28 And Adventist too. Oh, we've taken that. 02:30 And we've been able to do used to keep those terms, 02:33 so they're referred to the organized 02:35 work of the Adventist church. 02:36 So when you see someone 02:38 who says they're Seventh-day Adventist 02:39 or you see a church say it's a Seventh-day Adventist 02:41 or Adventists you know, 02:43 that you are going to be in a church, 02:45 in a Christian community, 02:46 that holds a certain set of beliefs, 02:48 values, and doctrines. 02:50 And that is the reason for it. 02:51 It's not to deny other people to right worship. 02:53 People have the rights to start their own churches, 02:55 to go their own way to disagree with the Adventist Church, 02:58 to break off from it, that's other thing. 03:00 But what you can't do is steal our name. 03:03 Yeah, if we had any problem with groups or break offs 03:07 or imitators that had a name 03:10 that would be a legal problem that preexisted. 03:13 Yeah, there are certain groups and so forth 03:15 who views the name Adventist or Seventh-day Adventist 03:17 before it was registered and so forth. 03:19 So this has no relevance to that? 03:20 Yeah, there are certain groups that, 03:22 you know, can continue to do use that and we, 03:25 you know, in our pre-- but again, 03:28 for the most part, the Adventist church 03:30 and Seventh-day Adventist those terms are unique to us. 03:33 And it really just a matter of common sense 03:35 which is to say people should be able to come up with a name 03:38 that's unique and it's theirs and is distinct, 03:41 so other people aren't confused. 03:42 And when someone, you know, 03:44 a good name is worth more than gold, 03:45 you know, when someone comes and tries to use 03:47 another person's name it's theft. 03:49 Well, you know, you're quoting a reference 03:51 to what Shakespeare said. 03:53 You know, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." 03:55 Right. "Romeo and Juliet." 03:58 Yes. What speech? When did he say that? 04:01 It was the balcony speech. 04:04 Yeah, it was balcony speech. 04:05 I had literature. Yeah. 04:07 Very good, I'm impressed. 04:11 I probably don't come up to snuff on little for you. 04:14 I studied English and history. 04:18 Yes, so, but where we're getting into trouble 04:20 as how we, or not into trouble, 04:22 but, you know, the PR problem 04:25 is when we exercise this legal right and make an objection. 04:29 Right. So they've been certain organizations 04:31 and certain groups that have tried to trade or name 04:34 who aren't connected the Adventist Church 04:35 actually view the Adventist Churches 04:37 an apostasy in needs if it's in theological heir. 04:40 Yeah, I don't understand this myself 04:42 because I have a question 04:44 in a fairly large public meeting on this 04:46 and you know rather get into the legal side which I don't-- 04:49 I'm presumptions enough to. 04:50 I said the real question is, why would somebody 04:53 who defers clearly doesn't hold what Adventists hold. 04:56 Why would they want to sort of appropriate name. 05:00 And no one has good answer to that. 05:03 But the assumption is they're playing spoil 05:06 they want to have some advantage for a group 05:08 that they don't really agree with. 05:10 Well, some of these groups will say 05:11 is they're the true Seventh-day Adventist Church, 05:13 that they are-- you know, reform, 05:14 not the reform but they are the true church 05:16 and the mainline churches has apostatized. 05:19 The problem with this is it's misleading to other people. 05:23 It tells them and falsely associates 05:25 themselves with someone else. 05:27 And they're clearly trying to trade on this 05:29 and you know what the Adventist Church has done, 05:31 we ask people nicely. 05:32 I mean there is a whole process we go through. 05:34 But ultimately for organizations and individuals 05:36 who refuge to respect their name 05:39 and refuse to respect our rights we have brought 05:42 in a very limited number of cases litigation. 05:46 And we've won that litigation every time 05:47 we have brought it recently. 05:51 And the penalty is a matter of the judge, it's not us. 05:53 Well, there is-- no, no, the penalty 05:55 the only penalty we ask for there is no penalty we ask for. 05:57 Well, obviously this is a case obviously. 06:00 Right. The only thing we ask for is-- 06:01 The consequence. 06:03 The court forced them and keep them from using it. 06:06 And if they refused to do that-- 06:08 it becomes a matter not just the Adventist Church 06:09 but refusing the respect the authority of a church. 06:11 That's what I'm saying. 06:12 That's between them in the court 06:14 that we're not, out of it. 06:15 Right and it's contempt that's what it is. 06:17 And you know and you have an obligation 06:18 the respect the laws of the land. 06:20 And, you know, some of these organizations they said, 06:22 well, you know, "I want to use this name." 06:24 Well, that's fine. 06:25 But you don't have a religious liberty interest 06:27 in stealing something that's another person. 06:29 I mean think of it in this context. 06:31 You know, the Adventist Church has churches 06:33 and real property, you know, 06:34 what we call all around the country. 06:36 If someone came in and moved into the church 06:39 and says, "You know what? 06:40 We're going to use this church, it's ours now." 06:42 And just basically squandered and stole it. 06:44 No one would have a problem with the local church team them 06:47 and call the police and forcibly remove those people from it. 06:50 No one will question that for a second. 06:51 No-- Let finish here. 06:54 But what will happen-- 06:56 But what I'm saying is when they want to steal our name, 06:58 which is more valuable than any single church, 07:01 all of a sudden using the court's system 07:03 becomes a problem. 07:04 Yeah. Well, I was going to interject. 07:06 We would hope in such a theoretical as well as 07:09 what we're talking about 07:11 that the initial contact of the church 07:13 would be to appeal through Christian charity to someone's-- 07:17 You always, you ask them first. Better nature. 07:20 And that's what we need to get across. 07:22 I don't think even given that we have people like you 07:25 at the General Conference, our operative principle 07:29 is not legal strong arming anybody whatsoever. 07:31 No, it is the first thing we do as we send them a letter, 07:34 we ask them to confirm, 07:36 'cause lot of times people are using name 07:37 actually are connected to church 07:38 and we just don't know about them. 07:40 It's a big church. 07:41 We ask them if people maybe not formally connective, 07:43 but are working in harmony with administrative principles 07:45 they can go to their local conference, 07:47 they can get letters, they can get a license for it. 07:49 Many, many people do that. 07:51 It's only the people who view the church as, 07:54 you know, being a rebellion and disagree 07:55 with our theological beliefs and working against the church 07:58 who can't use the name. 07:59 And that only makes sense, 08:01 I mean, put this in a commercial context. 08:02 I mean, if you're Coca-Cola 08:04 and someone wants to use your name 08:05 and it says that Coca-Cola is trash 08:07 you're not going to want let them do that. 08:09 Now same thing with the church. 08:10 We're just simply trying to keep in respect what is ours. 08:13 An intellectual property right is just as much 08:16 something that you own as you know a real building. 08:21 Yeah. Anyhow who am I challenge that. 08:23 But I didn't want to discuss it here 08:25 because I know what happened around 08:27 certainly within our own membership, 08:28 there's some misunderstanding on this. 08:31 They're not necessarily always comfortable with us doing this. 08:34 And I don't think they realize, first of all, 08:37 how the law works but that we are a church 08:40 and even when you said we write the letters, 08:43 but there should be a level with, 08:45 if not administrators, the church pastors 08:48 on a spiritual operation of the church level 08:51 before lawyers are even involved. 08:53 Yes. 08:54 And the church is the church and it has the spiritual agenda. 08:57 So this is not the primary agenda of the church. 09:00 The Legal Counsel, the Office of Legal Counsel 09:03 has been charged with carrying forward 09:06 this protection of the name and you use the law 09:10 as it's meant to be used. 09:11 Yeah. And again our only other option is to allow 09:14 the name Adventist or Seventh-day Adventist, 09:15 just to be as generic and used by anyone as you want. 09:18 And what that means is, you know, I mean, 09:20 a perfect example of this 09:21 and I want to be careful here is, 09:22 you know, several years ago down Waco, Texas-- 09:24 I was gonna mention that. I'm glad you brought it up. 09:26 There was a group of people who got confused 09:29 with the Adventist Church and people thought 09:31 there was all Seventh-day Adventist in there. 09:33 There were a lot of former Adventists, 09:34 but he had no connection. 09:36 But he'd been disfellowshipped from the Adventist Church. 09:37 And without protecting our name, 09:40 anyone can use it and you never know 09:41 what they're going to do with it. 09:43 Absolutely. 09:44 That's a very real danger to our organization to the-- 09:47 Adventist members themselves 09:49 if they're rolled up in a case, 09:50 a group that today that was before 9/11, 09:52 they would be called terrorists I'm sure. 09:54 And homeland defensively in the act 09:56 and you wouldn't want-- 09:58 Well, they were called terrorists back then too. 10:00 No, that term was definitely used. 10:02 I don't remember the term 10:03 but it clearly has a whole lot rolled into up since 9/11. 10:08 And I think there's a lot of hazard 10:10 for a church organization 10:11 and this would protect us, you're right. 10:14 You know, and there has been situations where individuals, 10:17 because they could thumb their nose with the court, 10:19 because they've been found in contempt, 10:21 the court on its own motion incarcerated individuals 10:24 because they were disobeying the court. 10:26 That was not something the church asked for, 10:28 something the church sought. 10:29 But the reality is you can't just tell a court 10:32 that you're gonna disregard what they say. 10:35 And there was persistence in keeping banners up 10:37 or putting up new banners with the name and so-- 10:40 And quite frankly, these individuals, 10:41 I think in many regards, wanted to be incarcerated 10:44 because they felt it would bring more attention to their cause. 10:47 In fact, if you look at these organizations 10:48 about the only thing they talk about anymore 10:50 is this fight with the General Conference. 10:52 And that's the side that we can't discuss too much, 10:55 but we need to recognize that certain activist groups 10:59 in politics and the church is no different. 11:02 You might be actually aiding their agenda by using the law 11:06 and giving them a forum and so on. 11:07 How you can avoid that I don't know. 11:09 Yeah, and unfortunately there's no way to avoid that. 11:11 Yeah. But I think we're into a bit of that. 11:17 You mentioned Waco though. Yeah. 11:20 They were not called Seventh-day Adventists, 11:22 they were called Branch Davidians. 11:23 Why do you think there was some identification 11:25 and it was false with the Adventists? 11:27 Well, because-- What went wrong there? 11:29 Well, one thing that went wrong is our public relation staff 11:32 at that time were just not up to snuff. 11:35 So we had a very nice little old lady, literally, 11:38 little old lady in the General Conference 11:39 who was running Communications Department, 11:42 who was just literally out of her debt. 11:44 And they realized that after it got started, 11:45 end up replacing and putting whole community 11:48 just kind of took that issue over. 11:49 So the mainline church really was not in a position. 11:53 Second, they did used the name Branch Davidians, 11:55 but Davidian Adventist church was part of it. 11:59 And, you know, you're gonna understand a lot of people, 12:02 most people in fact in this country, 12:04 they're lucky if they can keep Adventists, Mormons 12:06 and Jehovah's witnesses separate. 12:08 And distinguishing between Davidians Seventh-day Adventists 12:11 and the mainline Seventh-day Adventist church 12:12 is something that just is gonna be hard 12:14 for most people in society. 12:15 So what you bring up? 12:16 And I think our church as most churches, 12:19 there's a great need to define ourselves before the community. 12:22 Yeah. And this will not do it. 12:24 No was intended to do it 12:26 and it's never going to substitute for a clear, 12:28 coherent and well-identified witness to our neighbors. 12:33 I've often visited Seventh-day Adventist churches 12:35 to speak there like you. 12:37 And sometimes I've asked two, three doors down, 12:39 you know, "Is there an Adventist church here? 12:40 'Cause I've know it. "No, never heard of it." 12:43 We should be well known 12:44 for what we are in our neighborhood 12:47 and as much as possible in the community 12:48 through clear communication and a good consistent witness. 12:52 We'll be back after a short break 12:54 to continue our discussion. 12:55 Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17