Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
that brings you up-to-date
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news, views, and discussion
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
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and I'm editor
of Liberty Magazine.
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And I have a very
special guest on the program,
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Todd McFarland, lawyer
and Associate General Counsel
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for the General Conference
of Seventh-day Adventist.
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Good to be here.
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And we work very
closely together,
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so closely that we could
sort of prod each other in ways
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that I can't do with most guests
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and probably get a
reaction that I'll know about.
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But I want to prod
you a bit on this program
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to discuss something that I know
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some of our Adventist
viewers already have views on
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and I think it
needs to be clarified.
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Some years ago and
you can give the date
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and whole context, the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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took out a trademark,
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well, they took out a trademark
on the name of the Seventh-day--
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Registered is the word.
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Registered the
trademark Seventh-day Adventist
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and there have been some
developments in recent years
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that get people all riled
up thinking that the church
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is doing
something inappropriate,
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illegal which is
not we can discuss that.
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But what's going on here?
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Why, how, and for what purpose?
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Well, the purpose
is the Adventist Church
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wants to keep the
name Seventh-day Adventist
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and Adventist to be unique.
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The Adventist
Church believes itself
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they've a unique message
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and if people see
the name Adventists
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or the Seventh-day Adventists
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we want them to
associate that with one church.
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The reality is the
term Baptists and Methodists
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and Catholic or what in
law, you know, there's generic
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which means you
could go out tomorrow
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and start a Baptist church.
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And actually you
wouldn't have to do anything.
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You could call your
church, the first Baptist church
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and you could teach
out of the Quran on it.
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And there would be
nothing to stop anyone.
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So in other words when
you see the name Baptist,
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it tells you
really absolutely nothing.
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It's usually only
part of another line
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like the Southern
Baptist or whatever.
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Now Southern
Baptist is trademarked
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and that does
tell you something.
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That's specific.
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But if you just
see the name Baptist
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that's tells you
really absolutely nothing
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about what that church teaches.
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So it's the full name
Seventh-day Adventists.
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And Adventist too.
Oh, we've taken that.
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And we've been able to
do used to keep those terms,
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so they're
referred to the organized
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work of the Adventist church.
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So when you see someone
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who says they're
Seventh-day Adventist
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or you see a church say
it's a Seventh-day Adventist
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or Adventists you know,
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that you are
going to be in a church,
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in a Christian community,
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that holds a
certain set of beliefs,
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values, and doctrines.
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And that is the reason for it.
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It's not to deny other
people to right worship.
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People have the rights
to start their own churches,
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to go their own way to disagree
with the Adventist Church,
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to break off from
it, that's other thing.
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But what you can't
do is steal our name.
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Yeah, if we had any problem
with groups or break offs
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or imitators that had a name
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that would be a legal
problem that preexisted.
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Yeah, there are
certain groups and so forth
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who views the name Adventist
or Seventh-day Adventist
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before it was
registered and so forth.
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So this has no
relevance to that?
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Yeah, there are
certain groups that,
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you know, can
continue to do use that and we,
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you know, in
our pre-- but again,
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for the most part,
the Adventist church
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and Seventh-day Adventist
those terms are unique to us.
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And it really just a
matter of common sense
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which is to say people should
be able to come up with a name
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that's unique and it's
theirs and is distinct,
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so other people aren't confused.
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And when someone, you know,
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a good name is
worth more than gold,
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you know, when
someone comes and tries to use
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another
person's name it's theft.
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Well, you know,
you're quoting a reference
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to what Shakespeare said.
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You know, "A rose by any other
name would smell as sweet."
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Right. "Romeo and Juliet."
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Yes. What speech?
When did he say that?
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It was the balcony speech.
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Yeah, it was balcony speech.
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I had literature. Yeah.
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Very good, I'm impressed.
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I probably don't come up
to snuff on little for you.
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I studied English and history.
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Yes, so, but where
we're getting into trouble
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as how we, or not into trouble,
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but, you know, the PR problem
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is when we exercise this legal
right and make an objection.
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Right. So they've
been certain organizations
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and certain groups that
have tried to trade or name
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who aren't
connected the Adventist Church
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actually view the
Adventist Churches
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an apostasy in needs if
it's in theological heir.
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Yeah, I don't
understand this myself
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because I have a question
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in a fairly large
public meeting on this
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and you know rather get into
the legal side which I don't--
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I'm presumptions enough to.
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I said the real
question is, why would somebody
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who defers clearly doesn't
hold what Adventists hold.
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Why would they want to
sort of appropriate name.
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And no one has
good answer to that.
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But the assumption
is they're playing spoil
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they want to have
some advantage for a group
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that they don't
really agree with.
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Well, some of
these groups will say
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is they're the true
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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that they are--
you know, reform,
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not the reform but
they are the true church
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and the mainline
churches has apostatized.
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The problem with this is
it's misleading to other people.
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It tells them and
falsely associates
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themselves with someone else.
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And they're clearly
trying to trade on this
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and you know what the
Adventist Church has done,
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we ask people nicely.
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I mean there is a
whole process we go through.
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But ultimately for
organizations and individuals
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who refuge to respect their name
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and refuse to respect
our rights we have brought
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in a very limited
number of cases litigation.
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And we've won that
litigation every time
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we have brought it recently.
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And the penalty is a matter
of the judge, it's not us.
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Well, there is--
no, no, the penalty
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the only penalty we ask for
there is no penalty we ask for.
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Well, obviously
this is a case obviously.
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Right. The only
thing we ask for is--
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The consequence.
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The court forced them
and keep them from using it.
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And if they refused to do that--
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it becomes a matter not
just the Adventist Church
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but refusing the respect
the authority of a church.
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That's what I'm saying.
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That's between them in the court
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that we're not, out of it.
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Right and it's
contempt that's what it is.
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And you know and
you have an obligation
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the respect the
laws of the land.
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And, you know, some of
these organizations they said,
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well, you know, "I
want to use this name."
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Well, that's fine.
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But you don't have a
religious liberty interest
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in stealing something
that's another person.
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I mean think of
it in this context.
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You know, the
Adventist Church has churches
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and real property, you know,
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what we call all
around the country.
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If someone came in
and moved into the church
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and says, "You know what?
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We're going to use
this church, it's ours now."
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And just basically
squandered and stole it.
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No one would have a problem
with the local church team them
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and call the police and forcibly
remove those people from it.
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No one will
question that for a second.
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No-- Let finish here.
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But what will happen--
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But what I'm saying is when
they want to steal our name,
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which is more valuable
than any single church,
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all of a sudden
using the court's system
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becomes a problem.
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Yeah. Well, I was
going to interject.
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We would hope in such
a theoretical as well as
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what we're talking about
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that the initial
contact of the church
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would be to appeal through
Christian charity to someone's--
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You always, you ask
them first. Better nature.
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And that's what we
need to get across.
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I don't think even given
that we have people like you
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at the General Conference,
our operative principle
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is not legal strong
arming anybody whatsoever.
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No, it is the first thing
we do as we send them a letter,
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we ask them to confirm,
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'cause lot of times
people are using name
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actually are connected to church
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and we just
don't know about them.
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It's a big church.
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We ask them if people
maybe not formally connective,
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but are working in harmony
with administrative principles
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they can go to
their local conference,
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they can get letters,
they can get a license for it.
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Many, many people do that.
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It's only the people
who view the church as,
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you know, being a
rebellion and disagree
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with our theological beliefs
and working against the church
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who can't use the name.
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And that only makes sense,
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I mean, put this in
a commercial context.
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I mean, if you're Coca-Cola
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and someone
wants to use your name
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and it says that
Coca-Cola is trash
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you're not going to
want let them do that.
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Now same thing with the church.
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We're just simply trying to
keep in respect what is ours.
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An intellectual
property right is just as much
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something that you own
as you know a real building.
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Yeah. Anyhow who
am I challenge that.
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But I didn't want
to discuss it here
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because I know
what happened around
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certainly within
our own membership,
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there's some
misunderstanding on this.
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They're not necessarily always
comfortable with us doing this.
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And I don't think
they realize, first of all,
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how the law works
but that we are a church
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and even when you
said we write the letters,
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but there
should be a level with,
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if not administrators,
the church pastors
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on a spiritual
operation of the church level
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before lawyers
are even involved.
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Yes.
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And the church is the church
and it has the spiritual agenda.
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So this is not the
primary agenda of the church.
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The Legal Counsel, the
Office of Legal Counsel
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has been charged
with carrying forward
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this protection of the
name and you use the law
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as it's meant to be used.
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Yeah. And again our
only other option is to allow
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the name Adventist or
Seventh-day Adventist,
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just to be as generic and
used by anyone as you want.
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And what that means
is, you know, I mean,
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a perfect example of this
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and I want to
be careful here is,
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you know, several
years ago down Waco, Texas--
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I was gonna mention that.
I'm glad you brought it up.
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There was a group of
people who got confused
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with the Adventist
Church and people thought
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there was all
Seventh-day Adventist in there.
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There were a lot
of former Adventists,
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but he had no connection.
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But he'd been disfellowshipped
from the Adventist Church.
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And without protecting our name,
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anyone can use it
and you never know
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what they're
going to do with it.
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Absolutely.
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That's a very real danger
to our organization to the--
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Adventist members themselves
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if they're rolled up in a case,
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a group that today
that was before 9/11,
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they would be
called terrorists I'm sure.
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And homeland
defensively in the act
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and you wouldn't want--
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Well, they were called
terrorists back then too.
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No, that term
was definitely used.
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I don't remember the term
00:10:02.32\00:10:03.69
but it clearly has a whole
lot rolled into up since 9/11.
00:10:03.72\00:10:08.71
And I think
there's a lot of hazard
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for a church organization
00:10:10.31\00:10:11.68
and this would
protect us, you're right.
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You know, and there has been
situations where individuals,
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because they could thumb
their nose with the court,
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because they've
been found in contempt,
00:10:19.62\00:10:20.99
the court on its own
motion incarcerated individuals
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because they were
disobeying the court.
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That was not
something the church asked for,
00:10:26.73\00:10:28.46
something the church sought.
00:10:28.49\00:10:29.86
But the reality is you
can't just tell a court
00:10:29.89\00:10:32.82
that you're gonna
disregard what they say.
00:10:32.85\00:10:34.99
And there was persistence
in keeping banners up
00:10:35.02\00:10:37.88
or putting up new
banners with the name and so--
00:10:37.91\00:10:40.33
And quite
frankly, these individuals,
00:10:40.36\00:10:41.77
I think in many regards,
wanted to be incarcerated
00:10:41.80\00:10:44.44
because they felt it would bring
more attention to their cause.
00:10:44.47\00:10:46.97
In fact, if you look
at these organizations
00:10:47.00\00:10:48.55
about the only thing
they talk about anymore
00:10:48.58\00:10:50.75
is this fight with
the General Conference.
00:10:50.78\00:10:52.54
And that's the side that
we can't discuss too much,
00:10:52.57\00:10:55.23
but we need to recognize
that certain activist groups
00:10:55.26\00:10:59.57
in politics and the
church is no different.
00:10:59.60\00:11:02.21
You might be actually aiding
their agenda by using the law
00:11:02.24\00:11:06.02
and giving them
a forum and so on.
00:11:06.05\00:11:07.64
How you can avoid
that I don't know.
00:11:07.67\00:11:09.06
Yeah, and unfortunately
there's no way to avoid that.
00:11:09.09\00:11:11.59
Yeah. But I think
we're into a bit of that.
00:11:11.62\00:11:17.18
You mentioned Waco though. Yeah.
00:11:17.21\00:11:20.20
They were not called
Seventh-day Adventists,
00:11:20.23\00:11:22.00
they were called
Branch Davidians.
00:11:22.03\00:11:23.40
Why do you think there
was some identification
00:11:23.43\00:11:25.89
and it was false
with the Adventists?
00:11:25.92\00:11:27.83
Well, because--
What went wrong there?
00:11:27.86\00:11:29.77
Well, one thing that went wrong
is our public relation staff
00:11:29.80\00:11:32.93
at that time were
just not up to snuff.
00:11:32.96\00:11:35.31
So we had a very nice
little old lady, literally,
00:11:35.34\00:11:38.04
little old lady in
the General Conference
00:11:38.07\00:11:39.47
who was running
Communications Department,
00:11:39.50\00:11:42.10
who was just
literally out of her debt.
00:11:42.13\00:11:44.11
And they realized
that after it got started,
00:11:44.14\00:11:45.83
end up replacing and
putting whole community
00:11:45.86\00:11:48.20
just kind of
took that issue over.
00:11:48.23\00:11:49.60
So the mainline church
really was not in a position.
00:11:49.63\00:11:53.73
Second, they did used
the name Branch Davidians,
00:11:53.76\00:11:55.95
but Davidian
Adventist church was part of it.
00:11:55.98\00:11:59.05
And, you know, you're gonna
understand a lot of people,
00:11:59.08\00:12:02.67
most people in
fact in this country,
00:12:02.70\00:12:04.48
they're lucky if they
can keep Adventists, Mormons
00:12:04.51\00:12:06.78
and Jehovah's
witnesses separate.
00:12:06.81\00:12:08.37
And distinguishing between
Davidians Seventh-day Adventists
00:12:08.40\00:12:11.34
and the mainline
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:12:11.37\00:12:12.74
is something that
just is gonna be hard
00:12:12.77\00:12:14.14
for most people in society.
00:12:14.17\00:12:15.54
So what you bring up?
00:12:15.57\00:12:16.94
And I think our
church as most churches,
00:12:16.97\00:12:19.43
there's a great need to define
ourselves before the community.
00:12:19.46\00:12:22.53
Yeah. And this will not do it.
00:12:22.56\00:12:24.65
No was intended to do it
00:12:24.68\00:12:26.05
and it's never going
to substitute for a clear,
00:12:26.08\00:12:28.85
coherent and well-identified
witness to our neighbors.
00:12:28.88\00:12:33.60
I've often visited
Seventh-day Adventist churches
00:12:33.63\00:12:35.86
to speak there like you.
00:12:35.89\00:12:37.26
And sometimes I've
asked two, three doors down,
00:12:37.29\00:12:39.47
you know, "Is there
an Adventist church here?
00:12:39.50\00:12:40.87
'Cause I've know it.
"No, never heard of it."
00:12:40.90\00:12:43.38
We should be well known
00:12:43.41\00:12:44.78
for what we are
in our neighborhood
00:12:44.81\00:12:47.04
and as much as
possible in the community
00:12:47.07\00:12:48.84
through clear communication
and a good consistent witness.
00:12:48.87\00:12:52.65
We'll be back
after a short break
00:12:52.68\00:12:54.41
to continue our discussion.
00:12:54.44\00:12:55.82
Stay with us.
00:12:55.85\00:12:57.22