Welcome back to
"Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
with guest Todd McFarland
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we were, we were really getting
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into the discussion
of the Supreme Court,
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but it devolved into
have they might relate
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to the ObamaCare and the
contraception requirements
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on the healthcare and so on.
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But let's continue
our original intend.
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Let's look more
at the Supreme Court
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and you can go back as far
as you want I know a lawyer,
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you have to learn all of
these, these landmark cases.
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What did the Supreme Court
done in the sweep of events
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that have upheld religious
liberty or on occasion,
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you know, what can you think
of that's not been too good?
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Well, you know,
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it's just a quick
history in Supreme Court.
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Yeah, we can't get to
everything but just the few.
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First of all you understand
that religious freedom
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in the Supreme Court
intervening in religious freedom
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is the invention
of the 20th Century.
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So the Supreme Court didn't
even start knocking down laws
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as being unconstitutional
on the religion cause
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of the Supreme
Court until the 1940s.
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So, you know, the whole
19th Century the Supreme Court
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was not really involved
in religious liberty issues.
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I think you're about to say
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what I was gonna say
after the fact, isn't it?
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Aren't you go about to
seize on Justice Black. Well--
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When he made a comment
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about the
separation of church and state.
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Yeah there is
that famous phrase,
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you know, there
is wall separation.
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Which originally
comes from Jefferson,
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but a lot of the
detractors of the separation
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of church and state like to say,
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it was an invention
of the Supreme Court
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under Justice Black's
tenure when they reiterate it
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as though it was an operative,
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you know, functional separation
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where it was just
theoretical with Jefferson.
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And that is the
phrase in Supreme Court
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for better or worse is
not used a lot anymore.
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No. The problem is,
it's a nice metaphor,
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and it sounds
great, and certainly
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we want to keep things separate,
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but I think what
people have begun to realize
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is that keeping state
and government completely
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separate has always been
impossible to some extent.
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I mean, I mean put the
simplest thing possible,
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you know, so you
built a new church.
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Well, there is land use laws,
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there is
regulation, there is healthcare,
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there is fire
and there's safety.
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I mean, a pure
separate church and state
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would mean a church
could built is dangerous
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and it's fire, you
know, prone building
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as they wanted with
no health or safety,
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you know,
requirements and the government
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wouldn't interfere and
no one's really advocating
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when we talk
about religious liberty.
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So there is always
this sort of tension,
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but for instance what
happens on the Murphy's broke
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where the government
because they didn't--
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the local community
didn't want a Muslim mosque
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was trying to use all
these land use requirements
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to keep them out so.
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These very legitimate government
interest can be misused
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by entities to
discriminate against the--
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You know, I'm glad you said that
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because I often
said on this program
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that by my observation
and studying for the years
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when I was growing up.
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Religious liberty while
in "Fox's Book of Martyrs"
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you know someone's at the state
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because they had a wrong
doctrine or the wrong religion.
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Most times
persecution comes at you
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through the ways you're saying.
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You can't get discerning
right-- you're not employed
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because someone
has an underlying
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suspicion of your faith.
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So it's usually these
legal mechanisms of the court
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does control that make
the positive for the negative
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difference on how
you practice your faith.
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And so in that sense
they're very much involved
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and you right, we can't
have an absolute separation.
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But I--you used the
term as a metaphor be careful
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because the people-- I
don't know what you may,
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you know, we're in agreement,
but I don't like the fact
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that it's just
being sort of passed out,
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well it's a metaphor
it's not, it's not a reality.
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I do think the
frame is intended allowing
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for the
complications that are obvious.
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They intended as far
as possible for the state
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to have its affairs and
the church to be separate
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not to be entangled.
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But there are day to day issues
that obviously you can't avoid.
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When I say metaphor,
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I mean, that
literally it is a metaphor,
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there is a no wall you
can physically built, it's--
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Yeah, I know why you used it--
I mean it's a legitimate term
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but the one's
that are attaching it
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just sort to say,
well, it's just a,
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it's just construct that
we don't buy that one any.
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You know, I wasn't
saying, it was about,
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but I mean it literally means
a definition of a metaphor.
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It is perhaps a less
helpful metaphor today,
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not to say there shouldn't be
separation of church and state,
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but this idea of a wall,
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I think we've
realized over the time,
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that it's a
difficult thing to do
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and you can
never have it complete.
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And so, you know, how does
church and religion organization
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interacts with
society and, you know,
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it's a balancing act that
we have had to do overtime
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and you know sometimes we get
right and sometimes we don't.
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Well, you've given me the
perfect angle to come back
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of what you mentioned
earlier in this program
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as a good
decision Hosanna-Tabor.
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Right. I'd be interested
in your thoughts on it,
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because while I
think it was very good,
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I think it unnaturally separates
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where there is a
natural entanglement
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because it sets church ministers
and direct church employees
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above the
normally applicable laws
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on discrimination on a
number of basis and so on.
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In fact, it allows the
church to discriminate. Right.
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Which we're
comfortable to appoint
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within church operation,
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but I think the societal
mood is not so good anymore
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and I am afraid
that the justices
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by is giving such
resounding exemption,
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may have setup an antagonism
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that later might require
pretty dangerous correction.
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Well, that's a lot of
speculation now, quite frankly--
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Yes, well, this is
what we did it to speculate.
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And you know, but really
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I think the reason
Supreme Court did that is
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that ultimately
they had little choice.
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I mean, there was
very little middle ground.
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With Hosanna-Tabor is going
earlier I talked about being,
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you know part of Amicus
group on the religious side.
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I am also a member
of the Civil Rights
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where the
initiation is employment law
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and I actually
talked to their people.
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You know, and as you
start walking through this,
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I mean, they
understood pretty example
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of where Hosanna-Tabor
is helpful for instance,
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the Catholic Church as policy
to be a priest you must be male.
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And of course,
the Adventist church
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also discriminates in the
basis of gender in its ministry.
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And, you know, and
there's a big debate about
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whether at least--whether
that is correct or not
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but I think on
thing we can all agree
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with this the government
should have no input on that.
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And so it is only
the ministerial exception
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that allows the
Catholic church to do that
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and everyone understands that.
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No one thinks that
the federal government
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or state
government should be allowed
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to make the Catholic
church a female priest,
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no matter, how much they
think that should be done.
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But how do you
sort of draw that line?
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Where is the middle ground?
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And when cut
start looking at it,
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there's very
little way to do it.
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So for instance
the Catholic church
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doesn't have a
policy on discriminating
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against this able priest.
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In other words you know,
you don't have to able body,
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you could be in a
wheelchair or have a bad back
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or whatever your disability.
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Well, priest that
can't fulfill their duties
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because of failing health.
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Well-- But there
is, there is no--
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It's very deceptive. Yes, there
is no disability we comment.
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So does that mean if
the priest is defraud
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that he or she or he I should
say can sue for disability?
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Well, no.
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Because the problem is
just how do you determine
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what that real
reason the person was fired?
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Was it for religious
reason, was it for disability?
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And so getting the
court some--there is no way
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other than
moving courts completely
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to keep the courts out.
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That's right and there
was. There's no middle ground.
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That was a very safe decision.
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We are all very
happy with Hosanna-Tabor
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and I am glad that you
dismissed it so quickly
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and I hope
you're right that my--
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You know, I don't, I don't
want to be dismissive of it.
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Why, I guess and I am saying
is it is absolutely important
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that religious organizations
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reviewed and treat their pastors
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and their
employees in a fair way.
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And that is the best protection
from religion from our society
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deciding that it
needs to interfere.
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We had a
discussion on this program
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not so long ago about some of
these internal church disputes
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where members are treated badly
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and employees the same,
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whether these are
religious liberty issues?
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And we said, no.
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They're not narrowly
speaking, but they do exist
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and they could
be used as an excuse
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for the civil authorities
to move in across this line now
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reasserted by Hosanna-Tabor
that's just by feeling--
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Yeah, now listen, you
know, people often talk about,
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you know, what kind
of religious liberty
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they will have in the church?
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Well, I mean we
certainly stand up
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for people's
right to make decisions.
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But if you decided to
become part of the body,
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you decide to become a
member or work for church.
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Free association.
No one's forcing it.
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And the church can have
it or an association say,
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listen if you don't believe
this you're not in the club,
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we're kicking you out,
you are not part of it.
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And that is perfectly,
you have no religious liberty
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right to be a
Seventh-day Adventist
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and believe Sunday Sabbath.
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Now you have the right
to believe Sunday Sabbath
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if you want, but
you can't call yourself
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a Seventh-day Adventist
and believe that is the thing.
00:08:55.19\00:08:57.95
And the church has the
ability to discriminate
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if you want to
use that word and say,
00:09:00.51\00:09:02.39
if you don't have this
right theological belief,
00:09:02.42\00:09:05.14
you know, we love you,
we'll treat you with respect,
00:09:05.17\00:09:07.18
but you can't stay in the club
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and that's that all
sareligious organizations--
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It's a matter of membership
of all organizations. Right.
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Where I think some
people get confused
00:09:14.91\00:09:16.66
certainly some of
our fellow members
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they're mixing models.
00:09:19.26\00:09:20.63
They think back on religious
persecution in the middle ages
00:09:20.66\00:09:23.08
where the church
operated as state
00:09:23.11\00:09:26.02
with the power of
life and death over you
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and like Martin Luther when
he differed from the church,
00:09:28.83\00:09:32.47
when the papal
bull came against him,
00:09:32.50\00:09:33.93
they would have
burned him with the stake
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if that had a chance
00:09:35.36\00:09:36.73
that's extreme prejudice
to use a military term.
00:09:36.76\00:09:38.76
It is and that is one reason
00:09:38.79\00:09:40.43
why we talk about this you know
separation of church and state.
00:09:40.46\00:09:42.49
That's why it's so important
00:09:42.52\00:09:44.09
that government and
church stay separate
00:09:44.12\00:09:46.73
when it comes to
governmental and civil powers.
00:09:46.76\00:09:49.18
Anytime that a church
tries to use civil powers
00:09:49.21\00:09:52.66
to try to enforce its religious
and theological belief,
00:09:52.69\00:09:55.28
there is going to be a problem.
00:09:55.31\00:09:56.94
And we shouldn't be treating
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you know people as
second class citizens.
00:09:58.37\00:10:00.13
You know we see
that all the time
00:10:00.16\00:10:01.53
and church
members use phrases like
00:10:01.56\00:10:03.09
you know referring to America,
this is a Christian nation.
00:10:03.12\00:10:06.35
Well, what do you mean by that?
00:10:06.38\00:10:07.78
As if you mean this
is a Christian nation--
00:10:07.81\00:10:09.18
Stop structurally so--
00:10:09.21\00:10:10.58
That anyone
who's not a Christian
00:10:10.61\00:10:12.34
isn't an
American, that is wrong.
00:10:12.37\00:10:14.31
People have the right to
be of any faith or no faith
00:10:14.34\00:10:16.65
and be just as much of
an American as a Christian.
00:10:16.68\00:10:19.39
And to use that phrase to
try to beat non-Christians,
00:10:19.42\00:10:21.96
whether they're Jews, Muslims,
00:10:21.99\00:10:23.36
Hindus or atheist
as sort of others,
00:10:23.39\00:10:25.46
people we don't
truly belong is wrong.
00:10:25.49\00:10:27.95
Absolutely. Well,
we're running out of time,
00:10:27.98\00:10:30.09
but overall the Supreme Court
is in a very pivotal position,
00:10:30.12\00:10:35.37
you know, it's one of the
three branches of government.
00:10:35.40\00:10:37.96
Their role is not
to legislate, is it?
00:10:37.99\00:10:40.01
But they can bring
the determination down
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from time to time that
has huge ramifications.
00:10:42.98\00:10:46.37
So like me you're fairly
comfortable with the right.
00:10:46.40\00:10:49.99
Well I am fairly comfortable
with the fright phrase,
00:10:50.02\00:10:52.85
but you know, as we continue
00:10:52.88\00:10:54.26
with the issues
of religious liberty
00:10:54.29\00:10:56.01
both in Supreme
Court other legislative
00:10:56.04\00:10:58.33
and judicial
bodies around the world,
00:10:58.36\00:10:59.79
the important thing to
remember is its what society,
00:10:59.82\00:11:02.40
it's what written
in hearts and minds.
00:11:02.43\00:11:04.08
What do we as humans--
what do as society want?
00:11:04.11\00:11:07.71
And that's why
advocating for things like
00:11:07.74\00:11:09.11
religious
liberty are so important
00:11:09.14\00:11:10.91
is so that people
in society understand
00:11:10.94\00:11:12.86
the value of religious liberty,
00:11:12.89\00:11:14.61
understand why this
is important principle
00:11:14.64\00:11:18.13
to stand up for
all people of faith.
00:11:18.16\00:11:23.33
The Seventh-day
Adventist the idea of a court
00:11:23.36\00:11:26.33
has great resilience.
00:11:26.36\00:11:28.37
You know, in the Bible
I think it's in Daniel,
00:11:28.40\00:11:30.94
it says the judgment
was set in the court set.
00:11:30.97\00:11:34.87
Of course, that's
the heavenly court
00:11:34.90\00:11:36.27
and we know that in a way
00:11:36.30\00:11:38.49
that we can't quite explain
00:11:38.52\00:11:41.15
the actions of
people on this earth
00:11:41.18\00:11:44.50
are being reviewed in heaven.
00:11:44.53\00:11:46.54
But down here on earth,
00:11:46.57\00:11:48.26
we depend on very fallible
people with some legal training
00:11:48.29\00:11:52.76
that perhaps no
more moral training
00:11:52.79\00:11:54.57
than the average person.
00:11:54.60\00:11:56.14
We depend on them to
decide how to administer laws.
00:11:56.17\00:12:01.46
At the best of times that's
a very difficult proposition
00:12:01.49\00:12:04.05
and we need to pray for
judges in that situation.
00:12:04.08\00:12:07.53
But when we're talking
about religious liberty,
00:12:07.56\00:12:10.31
something else kicks in
00:12:10.34\00:12:12.35
and as you heard in this program
00:12:12.38\00:12:14.14
as we've discussed at
some length very often justices
00:12:14.71\00:12:19.72
Supreme Court justices
are called to decide cases
00:12:19.75\00:12:23.17
that have huge ramifications
for religious liberty.
00:12:23.20\00:12:26.82
We can only pray that these
justices keep to true justice
00:12:26.85\00:12:31.10
and not as it says in
Revelation at the end of time
00:12:31.13\00:12:33.82
we like many justices,
00:12:33.85\00:12:35.63
we pervert
justice and discriminate
00:12:35.66\00:12:39.08
against the rights of
their fellow human beings.
00:12:39.11\00:12:44.15
For "Liberty
Insider" this Lincoln Steed.
00:12:44.18\00:12:47.27