Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
that brings you up-to-date
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news, views, information,
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and most importantly discussion
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on this program
is Todd McFarland, Esquire,
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Associate General Council
of the General Conference
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of Seventh-day Adventist
and of course my friend,
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because we work very closely
together on Liberty Magazine
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and your council and an
author on occasion for Liberty.
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But since you're a
lawyer, since you know law
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and I'm gonna thumb into you now
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and then and I'm
sure I will be corrected,
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but the Supreme Court
is very important for us
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working in the
religious liberty areas.
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You know, many of
their pronouncements
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have huge ramifications
for religious liberty.
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Well, what's your general take
on the present court overall
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and what they've revealed about
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the directions they're taking
on religious liberty issues?
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Well, I will start it
with a sort of a disclaimer.
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There's no-- you know,
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I live and work in
Washington DC area.
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There's no end of
people who like to think
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they know what
Supreme Court is doing
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and read the
opinions and parsed and say,
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we don't
necessarily use this language
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and you know
we're going to do this
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and that, you know, and
claim to be experts, a story.
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Well, we're part of that group.
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Well, yes to some extent.
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There was case a
couple of years now
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maybe about a year
ago called Hosanna-Tabor.
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It was a case that had
to do with whether or not
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there was something
called the ministerial exception
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and it was about
the school teacher
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who have been
fired and they claim
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that was for religious reasons
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and whether she could make
her claim against the school.
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Now this is very important
case. Very important case.
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We had-- I mean, it is probably
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since I've been working
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the most important religious
liberty case that's come up.
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I'm glad you said that.
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And the most important
probably in a generation.
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So before this we had a meeting
of interested religious groups.
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I mean every body
was represented there.
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The Catholics were
there, Baptists were there,
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Mormons were there,
scientology was there,
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evangelicals,
Jewish groups were there,
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I mean, everyone
was represented there
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and we were trying to coordinate
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with those are Amicus group.
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Which is these briefs that
we're gonna file with the court,
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'cause
everyone's talking about--
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But like it's a friendly
encouragement to the court by--
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Right, in
explaining our position.
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There were people
there who had had,
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who had current
Supreme Court justices,
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who had work for them as clerks,
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I mean, not as clerks, as
associates in their law firm,
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I mean, so this was as a plugged
in group as you can imagine.
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So we were talking
about how this may come down.
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And they didn't know or
understood. No one knew.
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They thought we
might win 5-4, maybe 6-3.
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The Supreme Court came
down with a 9-0 opinion.
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So when you say
what is the court's view?
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I don't know.
Nobody knows. It's a guess.
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But, you know,
generally in Hosanna-Tabor
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being example the Supreme Court
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has been
recently fairly friendly
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to the issues of
religious liberty.
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Well, I'm glad
you say that because,
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yeah, I don't claim
they know their demand
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any more than anyone else.
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But I differ from some people
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because I haven't yet seen them
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as a looming threat
to religious liberty.
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I think by and large
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they're fairly conservative
in the sense of but,
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you know, they
don't just reach out
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and do wild stuff
except citizens united like me.
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People disagree on that.
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But generally on things that
relate to religious liberty,
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I think they're fairly cautious
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and I don't see them
as the major problem.
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They are not
testing religious liberty
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in any consistent
way that I've seen.
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It will be--It will
be interesting to see.
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So I defend them by and large.
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Right now we have a
new issue coming up to,
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the next big issue
in the religious liberty
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the Supreme Court's
gonna have to deal with is
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this contraception requirements
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and so you know the
Affordable-care-act,
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a.k.a. ObamaCare.
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Every one kind of uses that now,
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Obama embraced, so its now.
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Yeah, he said
he even likes that.
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Right, he likes to tell them
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so it's not being
majority over partisan here.
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Requires a court
contraception insurance
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for employers or such type.
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And the question is whether
or not religious organizations
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could get a exemption for that
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and then also
whether secular organizations
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that have religious
owners and directors
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whether they have
religious liberty right.
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And this is all in the courts.
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And that case is eventually
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going to make it
up at Supreme Court.
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It will be a
very telling decision,
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because it puts
two things in conflict.
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It puts women's right issues
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in conflict with
religious liberty rights.
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Now, my particular
view on this is well
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that the
imposition on religion--
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on women's rights is
very small and the minimums
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and very narrow
where as the imposition
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on the religious
liberty is much greater.
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But how the court comes on
that is gonna say lot about
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where they come down
on religious liberty.
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And you don't think
you're gonna extrapolate
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from what they've
already decided on ObamaCare?
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Well, no, I think that you know,
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the decisions as far as where
or not the affordable care act
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was constitutionally is
really a different question
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than, than the
religious liberty issues.
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And they saw it more
as a, as a taxing issue?
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Yeah. That's how
it came down was that,
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you know, of course
that was 5-4 decision
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where Justice Roberts
switched at the last minute,
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he sets every
indication and said--
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I think he just
wanted to-to have his cake
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and eat it too,
that's my point of view.
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That this was a tax,
but now that issue about
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whether the Affordable
Care Act was constitutional
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and those decisions
that came down last term
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is really different than
the religious liberty issue.
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But he just told me
that they weren't willing
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to tackle it head on.
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That--so I
don't think they would
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commit any
landmark type decision on it
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if they are this
tentative early on.
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No, and here's how
you got to look at it.
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I mean, you don't
put everything in context
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which is to say for
the Affordable Care Act,
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which is a sweeping
mob that defects you know--
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Nobody that I've
ever read or heard from
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admits to having read at all.
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Well, it is. Yeah, it is that.
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But it is a huge one,
has a lot of components.
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The religious liberty exemption
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that certain groups are seeking
is a very small part of it.
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I mean, if this is
the Venn diagram of it
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and it's just little bitty
circle up here in the corner.
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That has very little
effect on the laws as a whole.
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So it's not like that
you're being asked to invalidate
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the Affordable Care
Act or really even make it
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non applicable to a
large group of people.
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And isn't there
religious liberty exemption
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that would mostly
apply, I would think to groups
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like the Roman
Catholic institutions,
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healthcare institutions.
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Couldn't the court or
the law deal with that
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apart from how they define
or redefine the healthcare act.
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Absolutely. They can
deal with the exemptions
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and other rights
that already exist.
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So I don't think they have
to-- It's a very small part.
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It's up or down
on the healthcare.
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No, no, not at all.
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And keep in
mind for some I mean,
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for somewhat like
the Catholics object
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providing all parts
of Affordable Care Act
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which is say both contraception
and what's known as plan B.
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A lot of
organizations like Hobby Lobby
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and some of the
for-profits evangelical
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do not have a prominent
standard contraception,
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standard oral
contraception injection.
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That's like plan B
they view as being sort of
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what's they refer
to as an abortifacient
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something that
causes an abortion.
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Now, medically
there's a big question
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about whether that's
just medically right.
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In other words, just for
you viewers plan B is a--
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it's the same,
it's an extra dose
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so to speak of the
same contraception pills
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that woman take
on the regular basis
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and it can, up
to I think 72 hours
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after intercourse
to prevent pregnancy.
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And the question
exactly how that works
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whether it stops is an abortion
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or just stops
fertilization is medically
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when that apparently
still up in the air. Yeah.
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I wouldn't myself-- I mean,
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I wouldn't call it
abortion in the classic sense
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but all of these, all of these
two side battles sides kick in
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then it becomes very emotional.
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It becomes very emotional,
it becomes very charged.
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And you know, of course,
keep in mind to some extent,
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you know, while there may
be medical answers to this.
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You know, people's personal
religious views are their views
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and it really isn't for
us to say no, you are wrong.
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Well, that's right.
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And thanks for bringing it up
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because we
sometimes fail to say,
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doesn't it matter
whether your church held this
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as far as United States
and religious exemptions
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that usually if you have
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a deeply held
conviction, isn't it?
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Yeah. Anyways, and it is--
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It's your belief, it doesn't
even have to be connected
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to any religious
structure person.
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Absolutely and in knowing for
those religious organizations
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or those groups that
they have these views,
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I guess I mean, you know,
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medically you can
disagree with them.
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And there is a medical
answer that can be had there
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and that has some informative.
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But you know,
ultimately if these groups
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and these organizations feel
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that this violates
their religious belief.
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You know, it isn't appropriate
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for the government
to say no, it doesn't.
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Now, the government may say
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even if it does
violate your beliefs,
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we are still going to you
know, require you to do this.
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I mean, that's
appropriate in sense
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but you can't
really tell people that no,
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their beliefs
aren't being violated.
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I'm glad we are
having this discussion
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because I've shared
on other programs before
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my views on the battle between
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the Roman Catholic Church,
most recently and ObamaCare
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and they're taking
on the administration.
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And I'm not overly sympathetic
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to what they were trying to do
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because I saw it as more of
a political move on both sides.
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And the issues like state aid
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to church run
operations kicked in,
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I don't think it was all
that it appeared to be. Right.
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But beneath all of that there
is what you're talking about.
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There is a matter of conviction
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and a faith view and
it shouldn't be just--
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I might have just missed--
I like to talk about that,
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I like to talk
about that for a minute
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because you know when
this debate was going on,
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you know, as one of the people
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that helps guide
the Adventist church
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on where our
stance on this issues is,
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there was a lot of pressure
for us to make statements
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and join briefs and so forth
and we're still looking at that,
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that may come down as time.
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But there is
two things going on.
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There is a legitimate
religious liberty interest,
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which is to say, you
know, catholic organizations
00:10:04.44\00:10:06.66
being required
to pay for something
00:10:06.69\00:10:08.12
they believe to be
sinful is a problem.
00:10:08.15\00:10:10.68
But on top of
that, a lot of the people
00:10:10.71\00:10:12.69
who had
religious objection on this
00:10:12.72\00:10:14.60
also had political objections
00:10:14.63\00:10:16.47
both to the
current administration
00:10:16.50\00:10:17.99
and Affordable Care Act.
00:10:18.02\00:10:19.39
And so those two things
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were nearly getting
melted and confused.
00:10:20.82\00:10:22.19
It came together in a
very dangerous way I think.
00:10:22.22\00:10:23.59
They did. That
brought us some way.
00:10:23.62\00:10:24.99
And very
personally, and you know,
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as an Adventist
church we have people
00:10:26.42\00:10:28.62
really unlike
many other churches
00:10:28.65\00:10:30.18
we have people all
over the political spectrum.
00:10:30.21\00:10:32.56
We are very diverse when
it comes to political beliefs.
00:10:32.59\00:10:35.84
I mean have
Republicans, may be Democrats,
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you know, independents etcetera.
00:10:37.93\00:10:39.30
And--as
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:10:39.33\00:10:41.00
has never thrown and slot him.
00:10:41.03\00:10:42.40
Right. And we
have to--And we have--
00:10:42.43\00:10:45.17
With any
political group. Absolutely.
00:10:45.20\00:10:46.57
And we stay and so you know,
00:10:46.60\00:10:47.97
how do you talk about a
legitimate religious liberty
00:10:48.00\00:10:50.25
interest
without its being viewed
00:10:50.28\00:10:52.16
as jumping into
a political fray.
00:10:52.19\00:10:53.85
It was a very
difficult thing to do
00:10:53.88\00:10:56.14
and it was very unfortunate
00:10:56.17\00:10:57.54
that this
religious liberty interest
00:10:57.57\00:10:59.00
has gotten tied up
into a political debate
00:10:59.03\00:11:01.83
because a lot
of the people think
00:11:01.86\00:11:04.59
that the
organizations are objecting this
00:11:04.62\00:11:06.77
are really just trying
to make political points.
00:11:06.80\00:11:08.43
Now having an
Affordable Care Act
00:11:08.46\00:11:10.33
upheld by the Supreme
Court, having President Obama
00:11:10.36\00:11:13.20
getting elected to a
second term, all that sort of
00:11:13.23\00:11:15.51
turns the temperature
down on the political side.
00:11:15.54\00:11:18.71
And because, you know,
00:11:18.74\00:11:20.11
there's a less of a
political debate we could make.
00:11:20.14\00:11:21.51
Well, I think that
they were in a rush
00:11:21.54\00:11:22.91
because this is my statement,
00:11:22.94\00:11:26.33
you can
challenge it if you like it
00:11:26.36\00:11:27.87
and our viewers
will have their views,
00:11:27.90\00:11:29.40
but I think by
upping the pressure
00:11:29.43\00:11:32.16
when they did,
the Catholic Bishops,
00:11:32.19\00:11:35.35
I think were wanting
to draw Catholic veto
00:11:35.38\00:11:38.36
support away from
the administration
00:11:38.39\00:11:41.37
and away from
Democrats to vote Republicans.
00:11:41.40\00:11:44.23
I saw that is, that's what
you are saying to politics.
00:11:44.26\00:11:46.30
You know, I mean, you know--
00:11:46.33\00:11:47.84
And the point, my
point is to agree with
00:11:47.87\00:11:49.77
what you were saying otherwise.
00:11:49.80\00:11:51.32
Now the election is over,
00:11:51.35\00:11:52.72
there's no logic to even
thinking along those lines.
00:11:52.75\00:11:56.14
So now it's
going to be more of a,
00:11:56.17\00:11:58.15
more likely to be debated
00:11:58.18\00:11:59.55
on the real underlying
religious liberty issue.
00:11:59.58\00:12:01.37
Well, that would be
what we hope happens.
00:12:01.40\00:12:03.02
That this would be a
true religious liberty debate
00:12:03.05\00:12:05.93
and not have
this political sheen
00:12:05.96\00:12:07.68
or sort of subtext that--
00:12:07.71\00:12:09.33
And you haven't said it yet
00:12:09.36\00:12:11.42
but the
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:12:11.45\00:12:12.82
runs many
institutions, many hospitals,
00:12:12.85\00:12:15.85
which I'm sure that
00:12:15.88\00:12:18.31
there's some entanglements
with state I think so.
00:12:18.34\00:12:20.45
Just to be clear of this
contraception requirement
00:12:20.48\00:12:22.55
does not anyway interfere
00:12:22.58\00:12:23.95
with Adventist
religious beliefs,
00:12:23.98\00:12:25.35
so our
statement on contraception
00:12:25.38\00:12:27.04
is both plan B and
regular contraception.
00:12:27.07\00:12:28.47
But if there is a
dynamic of government
00:12:28.50\00:12:32.51
meddling in the hospital
or the church institutions
00:12:32.54\00:12:36.07
through the avenue of--
00:12:36.10\00:12:38.01
in this case,
health requirement,
00:12:38.04\00:12:40.28
then we would be
sensitive to that, I'm sure.
00:12:40.31\00:12:42.15
Anyone would have to
be. Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:42.18\00:12:45.15
And to reiterate again,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:45.18\00:12:47.40
religious liberty positions,
00:12:47.43\00:12:49.25
you can explain
it in great length,
00:12:49.28\00:12:50.65
we can take many programs,
00:12:50.68\00:12:52.05
that's why we have this program
00:12:52.08\00:12:53.45
but we believe in the
separation of church and state.
00:12:53.48\00:12:55.87
So we're very anxious
to keep the civil affairs
00:12:55.90\00:12:58.67
in their own, on
their own side of defense
00:12:58.70\00:13:01.01
and the church's operation
00:13:01.04\00:13:02.41
and that's why back
to what you've mentioned,
00:13:02.44\00:13:04.70
Hosanna-Tabor was so important.
00:13:04.73\00:13:07.55
I'm enjoying this
discussion so much,
00:13:07.58\00:13:09.01
that we are sailing
past our break time.
00:13:09.04\00:13:10.79
So let's take a
break and come back
00:13:10.82\00:13:12.91
with us after a break
00:13:12.94\00:13:14.95
and we'll continue our
discussion of the Supreme Court
00:13:14.98\00:13:17.25
and some of the interesting
00:13:17.28\00:13:18.65
legal
complications that consensual.
00:13:18.68\00:13:21.70