Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000206B
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00:06 Welcome back to "The Liberty Insider",
00:08 with my guest Todd McFarland, lawyer-- 00:12 Yeah, Still. 00:14 And associate on Liberty Magazine. 00:17 We worked very closely together 00:19 and so we know each others weaknesses. Yeah. 00:20 This is getting in the way here of talking about things. 00:23 But we're talking about a very serious topic. Right. 00:26 Pastor Monteiro, 00:28 the Seventh-day Adventist Minister 00:30 imprisoned for a year now on a strange charge, 00:34 which we you know we're quite confident 00:35 it will turn out it's not at all what it's seems. 00:39 But along the way his faith is being tested personally 00:41 and the church is being molined. 00:44 I know it was before your tenure 00:47 as general council at the general conference. 00:50 But there was a similar case in some ways, 00:53 a pastor Anthony Alexander, 00:55 you remember hearing about that? Right. 00:56 I'm sure you well aware of it. 00:59 But your predecessor Mitch Tyner also flew a quite a few miles. 01:04 He probably got his one case status just-- 01:08 And you're going to Sri Lanka you know. 01:10 Yeah, going Sri Lanka which at that time 01:12 was involved in a bitter civil war, 01:16 very much divided the whole country 01:17 and it only ended in 2009 01:19 with the total extermination of the Tamil Tiger gorillas. 01:23 But in the middle of all of this a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, 01:26 teacher at the school was accused of being 01:29 at the terrorist sympathizer. 01:30 This was before 9/11 and put in jail for two years 01:34 on trial for his life under terrorism charges. 01:37 And here again, you know, this Pastor Monteiro case 01:41 is not to be trivialize but terrorism, 01:44 you know, capital offense this was a huge issue 01:48 and what really impressed me 01:51 was something about his imprisonment 01:53 and I tried to extrapolate this across to Monteiro. 01:57 Pastor Alexander at no point by out figuring 02:01 was going to get out. Do you remember that? 02:03 Do you remember any of the discussion 02:05 what we didn't have any legal magic bullet to get him out-- 02:09 No I think that was it was probably 02:11 trying to put political pressure on. 02:12 And really the same in Togo even knowing the law 02:16 what--it's very hard, you know, in another country 02:18 this sort off-- 02:19 Well, the thing about Togo is when we have lawyers, 02:22 the thing is this is in the international rights 02:25 Dakin--and so forth. 02:26 They don't have a independent judiciary. 02:28 You know, we talk about, you know, brings us back to, 02:31 you know, religious liberty issues 02:33 and especially even in the United States. 02:34 You know often times, you know, we talk about, 02:36 you know, political process. 02:38 Unlike the judges making decisions 02:39 and obsess people and they make decision 02:41 that they don't like. 02:42 What they forget is, 02:44 you know, that's a consequence of having a judiciary 02:45 that's independent, you know. 02:48 I mean, if President Obama calls up a judge 02:51 he cannot call up a district court judge 02:53 and tell him to, you know, to release someone 02:55 or interfere and he could pardon so forth 02:56 but--I mean we really have an independent judiciary 02:59 and that is so important in Togo. 03:02 It is really up to the judges there 03:04 it's up to the executive branch and what they want to do 03:07 and, you know, that is the problem 03:09 with having a weak judiciaries. 03:12 Since we've headed back on to that 03:15 and it's good to discuss. 03:18 I think apart of the issue there 03:20 and I've been seen your comment 03:22 I think Togo is under-- was French Colonial influence. 03:25 Yes, yes French Colonial influence. 03:26 And the French legal system is more you're guilty 03:30 until you can prove yourself innocent. 03:32 A presumed guilty on the charge 03:35 until you can prove your innocence 03:36 where we're innocence until proven guilty. 03:39 It's the difference between the British 03:40 and the French system. 03:41 Theirs is not a presumption in the--Togo legal system 03:44 though interestingly when speaking with Togo 03:46 legal officials down there 03:49 they all sort of made their way of corsis-- 03:50 innocently proven guilty 03:52 and they said which I thought was interesting 03:54 given that's not the legal presumptions. 03:55 So but it's again it's not about illegal presumptions 03:59 it's not about the process 04:01 it's not about the falling the way emotions, 04:02 it was up to that he would been released a long time ago. 04:05 It is unfortunately, you know, turns into a political process. 04:09 You know it's a very small country ran by for-- 04:12 you know, after independence by a dictator for long time. 04:16 It is now non-democratic and had open elections 04:20 that--non-opened this is up this is up for debate 04:22 the opposition doesn't think they're too open but, 04:24 you know, then Secretary of State 04:26 Hillary Clinton visited that sort of encourages 04:28 democratic aspirations and so, you know, 04:31 but they are early in that process. 04:33 It's a reminder that United States and some other-- 04:37 mostly western countries have admirable legal systems 04:40 to defend your religious purgatives. 04:43 That's not the case in many, many countries 04:46 and so defending religious freedom 04:49 ultimately is a matter--I love this term hearts in minds. 04:54 It's a matter of working with him in the community, 04:56 working against the prejudice and of course for lot of faith. 05:00 What I want to bring out on Pastor Alexander though 05:02 and I don't know what's happening 05:04 in the prison with Monteiro 05:06 but we know as you explained that situation. 05:10 Pastor Alexander was providentially was released 05:13 after two years. 05:14 There's was no legal magic bullet we knew off 05:16 but without warning 05:18 he was suddenly released pending retrial 05:20 but he was physically released 05:22 he was speeded out of the country's in Canada now. 05:25 I spoke to him and asked him about the whole situation 05:28 and amazingly he told me that he believed that 05:31 it was Gods will that he be imprisoned. Right. 05:33 That's what blew me away. 05:35 Even as he told me a great lengths 05:37 about being tortured, tie his ankles together, 05:42 hang him upside down, beat on his feet, 05:45 hit on his head with a book to stop the marks 05:47 but it causes brain damage real things. 05:51 And yet he said it was Gods will 05:54 that's a part of the whole religious liberty dynamic 05:57 we're not used to in the western world. 05:59 Yeah, you know, and I met Pastor Alexander 06:01 and that's his view of-- 06:03 you know I mean for him that maybe. And then if I-- 06:05 Oh, I'm not saying it was not just severely God's will. 06:08 Right, yeah, and I think you know, 06:09 I think Pastor Monteiro is the one 06:10 with good voice in prison. 06:12 I mean you got to understand the meaning-- 06:13 you know when I was in Togo 06:15 I actually preached in Pastor Monteiro church 06:17 the one he attends there. 06:18 Is that was on the pulpit, on the platform 06:20 it turned out that there was kid maybe 19 06:22 or 11-years-old sitting next to me doing scripture reading. 06:25 It was Pastor Monteiro's son 06:27 and he has all older children two 06:29 and a wife and you know his son 06:31 his wife his older kids need him. 06:34 Absolutely, there's no tragedy-- 06:36 And, you know, and that is and he has job as a father 06:39 and as a husband and needs to be home. 06:41 You know even if he's doing there good there in prison 06:43 and you know people say God's will always done 06:47 and I don't know that I mean I think God makes the best 06:49 out of situation but God's will in this-- 06:52 Gods purposes, it's not Gods will-- 06:53 Yes, right, right. 06:54 His purpose is to witness and to change any situation 06:58 and we can do that with this-- 06:59 And you know it's God's will is rarely done. 07:01 I don't think God's will the people die 07:03 it's not God's will that sin happen, 07:05 it's not God's will that people be torched. 07:07 None of that's God's will deceased, 07:09 illness none of that's His will. 07:11 But it doesn't mean, you know, all things were together 07:13 for those who serving him 07:14 and ultimately I think this will be something 07:16 that reinforces pastor Monteiro's faith 07:19 and works for it good but it doesn't mean 07:21 it was God's will and this was a good thing that happened. 07:23 So well, I want to go to two directions from what you said 07:28 as far as Pastor Alexander he was imprisoned 07:32 and the reason he felt that that was God's will 07:34 that he be imprisoned not that all of that happen. Right. 07:36 Now God doesn't wish ill on any of us. 07:40 But given that the charge was made in prison 07:42 he was able to draw together by witness 07:46 they were the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists 07:48 and so on a few lapse--Christians. 07:51 He was able to form a church group of 60 men 07:54 meeting every Sabbath and he was the pastor of that group. 07:58 And when time came for his release 08:00 he didn't initially want to be released, 08:02 because he was afraid that he left in there 08:04 and then he says amazingly another pastor was imprisoned 08:08 right at the moment he was released, 08:09 so he could continue it. 08:11 No, I don't think it's God's will to cause problem 08:14 but even though we're in a, you know, world 08:18 with a horrible situations 08:19 and we trust into these challenges all the time. 08:22 God will work it to good. 08:23 But-- No it is, in fact you know going back 08:27 you know this as we talked about an earlier show 08:29 about Ben Allison of liberty campaign 08:30 and if you watch this year's liberty campaign 08:32 that you have been talked about this to me, 08:33 he said you know I'm going to-- 08:35 you know if I get thrown in prison 08:36 I'm going to witness the people in the prison 08:38 who otherwise wouldn't hear what I heard I had the-- 08:39 And that's the historic what I have-- 08:41 that we run again of time but the thing 08:43 I want to remind of you as all 08:45 because I think I've mentioned it long time ago. 08:48 James Standen who used to work 08:50 as the legislative flays-- on the General Conference. 08:54 He went to India at one point of the province where 08:58 the untouchables were being prosecuted for many of them 09:01 becoming Christians and a Seventh-day Adventist pastor 09:04 was hunted down and by a mob. 09:06 This man killed, dismembered, his church burned 09:10 and James went to the church on the Sabbath, 09:13 the way it was smoldering ruins 09:15 but under a tree near by the people who worshiping 09:17 and the 12-year-old son of the pastor was there 09:20 and the widow. 09:22 Of course they were horribly distorted 09:24 at the loss of their father. 09:26 But the young boy told James, 09:28 he said that he wanted to be a pastor like his father. 09:30 And you know that's sort of thing 09:32 and I'm sure it's affecting due to see Monteiro's son 09:35 you know that's adverbial to in a family to see a parent 09:42 yes sacrificing for their faith 09:44 but being faithful in that situation. 09:45 Then again young person can be inspired to say 09:48 I want to be like my dad. 09:50 That's wonderful. Yeah it is. 09:51 I mean it you know I guess you think God 09:53 and making the best out of you know the situation 09:57 and that is you know but I don't think 09:59 it's God's will at the pastor died. 10:00 No I'm glad you're saying that I would never say that, 10:02 we should never think that. 10:04 God where as in the Bible says, 10:06 you know, Gods wishes to us a good that's all that God have, 10:10 I know my thought's showed you there you were a good-- 10:11 Right, you know, yeah by-- 10:13 Absolutely. If you-- 10:16 No we have to believe that God doesn't bring evil upon anybody, 10:19 even the evil. 10:21 Evil comes upon by their actions. Right. 10:24 But within the dynamic often a very bad situation 10:28 I believe God can use it powerfully 10:31 and so religious liberty is not always 10:33 getting out of the problem. 10:34 This is what I'm trying to make the application 10:36 Some one has the Sabbath accommodation issue 10:38 we would like to resolve it quickly. 10:40 But sometimes, when it gets more complicated 10:42 it's actually a better witness. All right it is. 10:44 You know and that's the difficult thing 10:46 that people have to understand is that, 10:47 you know, God promises to be with us 10:50 and take care of us but it doesn't mean 10:51 things are going to work out the way that we want. 10:54 God's promise is to support us. 10:56 It is not the things and we'll have an easy life. 10:59 Our reward is in heaven not on this earth. 11:01 And in defending people in religious liberty 11:03 that's an important thing to remind people 11:06 is God will be with you and He'll sustain you. 11:09 But that doesn't mean there aren't going be difficult times 11:11 and it doesn't mean you won't have to rely 11:13 upon His saving grace and His ability support us. 11:16 And as we have been talking about religious liberty 11:18 I think that's important to remember. 11:23 It was the Apostle Paul that made a statement 11:25 to the effect that whatever situation 11:28 I find myself in, I'm determined to be content. 11:32 Well, as I read this story of Paul 11:34 and his missionary journeys he was stoned, 11:36 he was imprisoned, he was harassed, 11:39 hounded out of town after town and yet he was content. 11:44 In this program we've discussed couple of specific cases 11:47 of Seventh-day Adventist in a prison 11:50 if not directly for their faith 11:52 but essentially in prisons an extended time 11:55 because of their faith. 11:57 It's worth remembering 11:59 that we have promised many things from God 12:01 and one of them is especifically 12:04 all who lived a Godly life, will suffer prosecution. 12:09 We can't solve that and what we can do though 12:12 as individuals is when we find ourselves in these situations 12:15 of course we can expect our fellow members, 12:18 our legal council if you like will help us as best they can. 12:23 But in that situation we must be determined to give things 12:27 because as we're seeing with Pastor Alexander 12:30 and perhaps seen with Pastor Monteiro. 12:33 God can work powerfully through even these desperate situations 12:38 to bring good out of it. 12:41 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17