Welcome back to
"The Liberty Insider",
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with my guest Todd
McFarland, lawyer--
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Yeah, Still.
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And associate on
Liberty Magazine.
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We worked very closely together
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and so we know each
others weaknesses. Yeah.
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This is getting in the way
here of talking about things.
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But we're talking about a
very serious topic. Right.
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Pastor Monteiro,
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the Seventh-day
Adventist Minister
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imprisoned for a year
now on a strange charge,
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which we you know
we're quite confident
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it will turn out it's
not at all what it's seems.
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But along the way his
faith is being tested personally
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and the church is being molined.
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I know it was before your tenure
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as general council at
the general conference.
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But there was a
similar case in some ways,
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a pastor Anthony Alexander,
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you remember
hearing about that? Right.
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I'm sure you well aware of it.
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But your predecessor Mitch Tyner
also flew a quite a few miles.
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He probably got his
one case status just--
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And you're going
to Sri Lanka you know.
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Yeah, going Sri
Lanka which at that time
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was involved in
a bitter civil war,
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very much
divided the whole country
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and it only ended in 2009
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with the total extermination
of the Tamil Tiger gorillas.
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But in the middle of all of this
a Seventh-day Adventist pastor,
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teacher at the
school was accused of being
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at the terrorist sympathizer.
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This was before 9/11 and
put in jail for two years
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on trial for his life
under terrorism charges.
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And here again, you
know, this Pastor Monteiro case
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is not to be
trivialize but terrorism,
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you know, capital
offense this was a huge issue
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and what really impressed me
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was something
about his imprisonment
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and I tried to extrapolate
this across to Monteiro.
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Pastor Alexander at
no point by out figuring
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was going to get
out. Do you remember that?
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Do you remember
any of the discussion
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what we didn't have any legal
magic bullet to get him out--
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No I think that
was it was probably
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trying to put
political pressure on.
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And really the same in
Togo even knowing the law
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what--it's very hard,
you know, in another country
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this sort off--
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Well, the thing about
Togo is when we have lawyers,
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the thing is this is in
the international rights
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Dakin--and so forth.
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They don't have a
independent judiciary.
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You know, we talk about,
you know, brings us back to,
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you know,
religious liberty issues
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and especially even
in the United States.
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You know often times,
you know, we talk about,
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you know, political process.
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Unlike the
judges making decisions
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and obsess people
and they make decision
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that they don't like.
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What they forget is,
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you know, that's a consequence
of having a judiciary
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that's independent, you know.
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I mean, if President
Obama calls up a judge
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he cannot call up a
district court judge
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and tell him to, you
know, to release someone
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or interfere and he
could pardon so forth
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but--I mean we really
have an independent judiciary
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and that is so
important in Togo.
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It is really up
to the judges there
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it's up to the executive
branch and what they want to do
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and, you know,
that is the problem
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with having a weak judiciaries.
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Since we've
headed back on to that
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and it's good to discuss.
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I think apart of the issue there
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and I've been seen your comment
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I think Togo is under--
was French Colonial influence.
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Yes, yes French
Colonial influence.
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And the French legal
system is more you're guilty
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until you can
prove yourself innocent.
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A presumed guilty on the charge
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until you can
prove your innocence
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where we're
innocence until proven guilty.
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It's the
difference between the British
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and the French system.
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Theirs is not a presumption
in the--Togo legal system
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though interestingly
when speaking with Togo
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legal officials down there
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they all sort of
made their way of corsis--
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innocently proven guilty
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and they said which I
thought was interesting
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given that's not
the legal presumptions.
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So but it's again it's
not about illegal presumptions
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it's not about the process
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it's not about the
falling the way emotions,
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it was up to that he would
been released a long time ago.
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It is unfortunately, you know,
turns into a political process.
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You know it's a very
small country ran by for--
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you know, after independence
by a dictator for long time.
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It is now non-democratic
and had open elections
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that--non-opened this
is up this is up for debate
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the opposition doesn't
think they're too open but,
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you know, then
Secretary of State
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Hillary Clinton
visited that sort of encourages
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democratic
aspirations and so, you know,
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but they are
early in that process.
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It's a reminder that
United States and some other--
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mostly western countries
have admirable legal systems
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to defend your
religious purgatives.
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That's not the case
in many, many countries
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and so defending
religious freedom
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ultimately is a matter--I
love this term hearts in minds.
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It's a matter of working
with him in the community,
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working against the prejudice
and of course for lot of faith.
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What I want to bring out
on Pastor Alexander though
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and I don't
know what's happening
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in the prison with Monteiro
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but we know as you
explained that situation.
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Pastor Alexander was
providentially was released
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after two years.
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There's was no legal
magic bullet we knew off
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but without warning
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he was suddenly
released pending retrial
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but he was physically released
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he was speeded out of
the country's in Canada now.
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I spoke to him and asked
him about the whole situation
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and amazingly he told
me that he believed that
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it was Gods will that
he be imprisoned. Right.
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That's what blew me away.
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Even as he told
me a great lengths
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about being tortured,
tie his ankles together,
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hang him upside
down, beat on his feet,
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hit on his head with
a book to stop the marks
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but it causes
brain damage real things.
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And yet he said it was Gods will
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that's a part of the
whole religious liberty dynamic
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we're not used to
in the western world.
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Yeah, you know, and
I met Pastor Alexander
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and that's his view of--
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you know I mean for him
that maybe. And then if I--
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Oh, I'm not saying it was
not just severely God's will.
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Right, yeah, and
I think you know,
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I think Pastor
Monteiro is the one
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with good voice in prison.
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I mean you got to
understand the meaning--
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you know when I was in Togo
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I actually preached
in Pastor Monteiro church
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the one he attends there.
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Is that was on the
pulpit, on the platform
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it turned out that
there was kid maybe 19
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or 11-years-old sitting next
to me doing scripture reading.
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It was Pastor Monteiro's son
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and he has all
older children two
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and a wife and you know his son
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his wife his
older kids need him.
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Absolutely, there's no tragedy--
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And, you know, and that
is and he has job as a father
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and as a husband
and needs to be home.
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You know even if he's
doing there good there in prison
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and you know people
say God's will always done
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and I don't know that I
mean I think God makes the best
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out of situation
but God's will in this--
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Gods purposes,
it's not Gods will--
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Yes, right, right.
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His purpose is to witness
and to change any situation
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and we can do that with this--
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And you know it's
God's will is rarely done.
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I don't think
God's will the people die
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it's not God's
will that sin happen,
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it's not God's will
that people be torched.
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None of that's
God's will deceased,
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illness none of that's His will.
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But it doesn't mean, you
know, all things were together
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for those who serving him
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and ultimately I
think this will be something
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that reinforces
pastor Monteiro's faith
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and works for it
good but it doesn't mean
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it was God's will and this
was a good thing that happened.
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So well, I want to go to two
directions from what you said
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as far as Pastor
Alexander he was imprisoned
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and the reason he felt
that that was God's will
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that he be imprisoned not
that all of that happen. Right.
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Now God doesn't
wish ill on any of us.
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But given that the
charge was made in prison
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he was able to
draw together by witness
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they were the
Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists
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and so on a few
lapse--Christians.
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He was able to form a
church group of 60 men
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meeting every Sabbath and he
was the pastor of that group.
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And when time
came for his release
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he didn't initially
want to be released,
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because he was
afraid that he left in there
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and then he says amazingly
another pastor was imprisoned
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right at the
moment he was released,
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so he could continue it.
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No, I don't think it's
God's will to cause problem
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but even though
we're in a, you know, world
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with a horrible situations
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and we trust into these
challenges all the time.
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God will work it to good.
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But-- No it is, in
fact you know going back
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you know this as we
talked about an earlier show
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about Ben Allison
of liberty campaign
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and if you watch this
year's liberty campaign
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that you have been
talked about this to me,
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he said you know I'm going to--
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you know if I
get thrown in prison
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I'm going to witness
the people in the prison
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who otherwise wouldn't
hear what I heard I had the--
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And that's the
historic what I have--
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that we run again
of time but the thing
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I want to remind of you as all
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because I think I've
mentioned it long time ago.
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James Standen who used to work
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as the legislative flays--
on the General Conference.
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He went to India at one
point of the province where
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the untouchables were being
prosecuted for many of them
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becoming Christians and a
Seventh-day Adventist pastor
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was hunted down and by a mob.
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This man killed,
dismembered, his church burned
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and James went to the
church on the Sabbath,
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the way it was smoldering ruins
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but under a tree near by
the people who worshiping
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and the 12-year-old
son of the pastor was there
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and the widow.
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Of course they
were horribly distorted
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at the loss of their father.
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But the young boy told James,
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he said that he wanted to
be a pastor like his father.
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And you know
that's sort of thing
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and I'm sure it's affecting
due to see Monteiro's son
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you know that's adverbial
to in a family to see a parent
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yes sacrificing for their faith
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but being
faithful in that situation.
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Then again young
person can be inspired to say
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I want to be like my dad.
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That's wonderful. Yeah it is.
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I mean it you know
I guess you think God
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and making the best out
of you know the situation
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and that is you
know but I don't think
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it's God's will
at the pastor died.
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No I'm glad you're saying
that I would never say that,
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we should never think that.
00:10:02.74\00:10:04.18
God where as in the Bible says,
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you know, Gods wishes to us a
good that's all that God have,
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I know my thought's showed
you there you were a good--
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Right, you know, yeah by--
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Absolutely. If you--
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No we have to believe that God
doesn't bring evil upon anybody,
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even the evil.
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Evil comes upon by
their actions. Right.
00:10:21.39\00:10:24.67
But within the dynamic
often a very bad situation
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I believe God
can use it powerfully
00:10:28.25\00:10:31.26
and so religious
liberty is not always
00:10:31.29\00:10:33.00
getting out of the problem.
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This is what I'm
trying to make the application
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Some one has the
Sabbath accommodation issue
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we would like to
resolve it quickly.
00:10:38.90\00:10:40.33
But sometimes, when
it gets more complicated
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it's actually a better
witness. All right it is.
00:10:42.38\00:10:44.66
You know and
that's the difficult thing
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that people have
to understand is that,
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you know, God
promises to be with us
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and take care of
us but it doesn't mean
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things are going to work
out the way that we want.
00:10:51.81\00:10:54.40
God's promise is to support us.
00:10:54.43\00:10:56.78
It is not the things
and we'll have an easy life.
00:10:56.81\00:10:59.70
Our reward is in
heaven not on this earth.
00:10:59.73\00:11:01.55
And in defending
people in religious liberty
00:11:01.58\00:11:03.23
that's an important
thing to remind people
00:11:03.26\00:11:06.24
is God will be with
you and He'll sustain you.
00:11:06.27\00:11:09.30
But that doesn't mean there
aren't going be difficult times
00:11:09.33\00:11:11.87
and it doesn't mean
you won't have to rely
00:11:11.90\00:11:13.54
upon His saving grace
and His ability support us.
00:11:13.57\00:11:16.86
And as we have been
talking about religious liberty
00:11:16.89\00:11:18.58
I think that's
important to remember.
00:11:18.61\00:11:20.74
It was the Apostle
Paul that made a statement
00:11:23.22\00:11:25.94
to the effect
that whatever situation
00:11:25.97\00:11:28.30
I find myself in, I'm
determined to be content.
00:11:28.33\00:11:32.42
Well, as I read
this story of Paul
00:11:32.45\00:11:33.98
and his missionary
journeys he was stoned,
00:11:34.01\00:11:36.50
he was
imprisoned, he was harassed,
00:11:36.53\00:11:39.30
hounded out of town after
town and yet he was content.
00:11:39.33\00:11:44.10
In this program we've discussed
couple of specific cases
00:11:44.13\00:11:47.96
of Seventh-day
Adventist in a prison
00:11:47.99\00:11:50.24
if not directly for their faith
00:11:50.27\00:11:52.42
but essentially in
prisons an extended time
00:11:52.45\00:11:55.88
because of their faith.
00:11:55.91\00:11:57.47
It's worth remembering
00:11:57.50\00:11:59.00
that we have
promised many things from God
00:11:59.03\00:12:01.57
and one of them is especifically
00:12:01.60\00:12:04.47
all who lived a Godly
life, will suffer prosecution.
00:12:04.50\00:12:09.21
We can't solve that
and what we can do though
00:12:09.24\00:12:12.20
as individuals is when we find
ourselves in these situations
00:12:12.23\00:12:15.82
of course we can
expect our fellow members,
00:12:15.85\00:12:18.96
our legal council if you like
will help us as best they can.
00:12:18.99\00:12:23.01
But in that situation we must
be determined to give things
00:12:23.04\00:12:27.52
because as we're
seeing with Pastor Alexander
00:12:27.55\00:12:30.15
and perhaps seen
with Pastor Monteiro.
00:12:30.18\00:12:33.10
God can work powerfully through
even these desperate situations
00:12:33.13\00:12:38.17
to bring good out of it.
00:12:38.20\00:12:41.03
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:41.06\00:12:45.64