Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the program bringing
you up to date news, views,
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information and discussion
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and I've a very special guest
on the program, Todd McFarland,
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esquire, lawyer and
Associate General Counsel
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of the General Conference
of Seventh-day Adventists
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and more importantly someone
in the interest of disclosure
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that I work very closely with.
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You're assigned
to Liberty Magazine
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and you're either amender
or fixer, I don't know which--
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Both, advisor. Yes both.
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But we really
appreciate what you do
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and as you reminded me recently
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you also write now and
then for Liberty Magazine
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so you're a big
part of what we do.
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I want to talk to you
about religious liberty
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on an international stage but
I will give a disclaimer first.
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When we talk about
it Seventh-day Adventist
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obviously we have a
very special concern
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for our own freedom of
witness all around the world.
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But we do know
that religious liberty
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is not confined
or the need to create
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a practical
functional religious liberty.
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All religions at
one time or another
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or one place or
another are prosecuted. Right.
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But our church is
been just galvanize
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by word that in
the country of Togo
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a Seventh-day
Adventist leader is in prison
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on a case that
doesn't really seem
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directly because of
his faith but I think that,
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that's the subtext
of what's going on.
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You know, as extra credit--
Tell us about the story.
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Because it's the oddest story
I've heard in many decades.
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Right and the
extra credit to members
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who confine Togo on a map
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it is a country in
West African in the horn.
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You know, African cones,
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its right there
next to Ghana and Benin.
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It's on-- yeah, as it tips down
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it's really facing
south but it's on the west.
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It is West Africa
in-- Next to Ghana, right?
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Next to Ghana in Benin
and real close to Nigeria.
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Lome is the
capital and that's where
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our Pastor Antonio Monteiro
and the church member of Bruno
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is incarcerated
there on suspicion of
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basically what we would
call in the United States
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conspiracy to commit
murder, it is a bizarre case,
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it is odd, it is
filled with contradictions
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and you know, I'm not sure
we have the full story this day
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like I'm pretty
confident we don't.
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But essentially in the
nutshell what happened was
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that in 2011, on the fall 2011
there was a series of murders.
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Yeah, plenty.
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Yeah, as we-- you know,
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even giving the exact number
of murders is been difficult
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but some number
of murders of women
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in and around of the
capital there of Lome
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and women were usually
found outside of the town
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in the brush and scrub
and so forth outside of Lome.
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Some indication
they may have been
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sexually assaulted
in some of the cases.
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And they are blooded in--
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Well, no, we'll get
to that in a second.
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So there was a lot of pressure
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and lot of news
reports to test theses murders
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and someone in
rights groups and so forth
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started to put
pressure on the government
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so the government started
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to create an actual
special group of Jon-d'arms.
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Sort of a French
phrase for a law enforcement
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or a type of law enforcement
to try to solve these murders.
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I believe at one point they
thought they found the person
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but then the murders continued
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they've been you know,
either release that person
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once they
realize it wasn't them.
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They then
continued to investigate
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and they came
across a gentleman,
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who's walking down
the road with a young girl
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who was one of
the street vendors
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and started to
question him and so on
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and they suspected that
he might be involved in this.
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They took him back
to the police station
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and through, what might be
best described euphemistically
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as enhanced
interrogation techniques.
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He end up confessing
to killing these woman.
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Of course, they were convinced
that he wasn't doing this alone.
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He had people who helped him
or supported him or whatever.
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A known name.
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Right, so they started
to put pressure on him.
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What he did was he
started naming names of people
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who he knew who
had been helping him.
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What turned out this gentleman
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in the weeks and
months prior to that
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had shown up at the Adventist
Union Head Quarters therefore
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its an Sahel Union and
asked to speak with the pastor.
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And you know and this actually
happens our head quarters
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from time to time,
people will show up
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and so you know just
who happened to be there
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and Pastor Monteiro who is
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the family ministries
coordinator for that union
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for that regional
part of West Africa
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for the Adventist Church was
available and so met with him.
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He took him to
church a couple of times,
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drove him in his car,
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helped him out and
gave him some cloths.
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He met--this gentleman met
another church member Bruno
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who was there who
also helped him out
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and drove him in his
car and so he was one of--
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there's about eight
people that he named
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and two of them are church
members that he had named.
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And so back in March of 2012
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about a year ago
as we sit here today
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it was, he was
arrested and he's been in jail
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since that time in Lome, Togo.
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And I visited him in that jail
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and I can assure you it
is not a good place to be.
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In fact, aren't those jails
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pretty much run by
the prisoners? Yeah.
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And relatives bring the food
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and just passed into
them separately. Right.
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They're taking
care of themselves
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and because they're criminals
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as well as some poor
unfortunates in there but--
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Well it is, it is
not a dangerous situation
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as well as stable situation.
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They are way, way
overcrowded I mean, its--
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And many people
died just from disease.
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If you don't have someone
helping you on the outside
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you know, you're time in there
is not-- It's going to be short.
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And you know even so
what our Pastor Monteiro
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and the other
church member, thie wives
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sort of one come in the morning
one comes in the afternoon
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they bring food and
got to bring it daily
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because you can't
really store there anything.
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Yeah there're
guards and so forth
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arm guards and
everything on the outside
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but inside it's
basically prisoners who run it.
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But, you know, the one
thing that did happened
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when Pastor Monteiro came there
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we've got
reports that he actually,
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you know, he's
well respected there.
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They understand he is a pastor,
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he's been able
to minister in there
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violence had actually is going
down since he's been there.
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So he had a
positive effect on the prison
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but it's still a very
dangerous place to be.
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And he hasn't
been brought to trail?
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No so, you know,
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lot of countries including
sporadically at least Togo.
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You know, again we use
this phrase in the last show,
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you know, this title of a
phrase pretrial detention.
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So you know, this idea that,
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you know, before you've
been convicted of a crime,
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you know, the government
can assure in circumstances
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you know, put you
in jail and hold you.
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You know, in our constitution
we have two big guarantees
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that don't
necessary exist in Togo.
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One of them is to bail,
not having unreasonable bail.
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Now you don't get
bail all the time.
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And the second is this
idea of a speedy trail. Yeah.
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And the reason that
our founding fathers
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in their wisdom
put these in as they--
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that this has happen before
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and has happening
for centuries which is--
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Terror of London.
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Right, people
get throwed in jail
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and getting your day in
court or whatever is impossible.
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You wait and the rulers
disposition when he feels--
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Right, when they
feel and people have been
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you know, this just come from
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the International
Human Organization
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people been held
in prison in Togo
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for seven, eight years
before they go to jail.
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There was one case
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in which a woman was
suspected of killing her kid.
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She was in jail eight years
before she got when to trial.
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Finally went to
trial they just decide,
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well, we convict you in
time served and released her.
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So you know, if she
really killed her kid
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she should probably be in jail
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for little
longer than eight years.
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And if she didn't kill him
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then you know,
that's a huge injustice.
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Something that we
should share on this situation
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is Togo is not a
majority Christian country.
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Christians are about 20 to 25%.
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I think they are
just-- it is mostly--
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it is of course more
Muslims in the north.
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I looked it up
and it's officially
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at least 20 to 25% Christians,
20 to 25% Muslim. Right.
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And roughly half there
about, they are anonymous.
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Yeah, yes, you're right.
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So what I read is that,
that it's not a necessarily
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a welcoming environment
for Christians generally
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or there will be miss
information and some--
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maybe suspicion
is the strong word
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but you know it's not a sympathy
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necessarily for a
Christian minister
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or representative of an
alien religious view point.
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And we know that
because of what happened.
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Remember when he was in prison
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very quickly there
were television programs
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on Seventh-day Adventists
that were wild and woolly
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even mixed in the idea
that the Seventh-day Adventists
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do drain blood and all
these sort of these things.
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You've mentioned draining blood
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and i probably should explain
what that's about because--
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so, you know, when he
named names about people
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is that why
would Pastor Monteiro--
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why would this elder gentelman
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you know, be
involved in the murders.
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And the theory was--
what this guy confess to was
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that Monteiro and the
other one had hired him
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to kill these woman
to drain there blood
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so they could--he could then
sell it to the Pastor Monteiro
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then to be used presumably
in some type of ritual.
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In the fact they
searched the union office,
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they searched the
Pastor Monteiro's church
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of course, they found no blood.
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I mean this literally
meets the definition of what,
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you know, the
historic blood liable
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which traditionally
and usually has been
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you know used against Jews back
in the middle ages and so forth.
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But this idea I could say,
it's bizarre, it's fanciful
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it doesn't, I mean, it's
not even if he is innocent.
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It's not just that
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pastor Monteiro is
innocent of the crime.
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It's an implausible charge.
00:10:01.24\00:10:02.61
Right the crime
itself is implausible.
00:10:02.64\00:10:04.11
I mean, not the killing of--
00:10:04.14\00:10:05.51
you know, the women
certainly were killed
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but this idea, their
blood was draining so forth
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and you know,
and we not tell you--
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we, you know, be
terrific here with our viewers.
00:10:10.75\00:10:13.28
But you know, we've
talked to doctors and so forth
00:10:13.31\00:10:15.82
you know, it turns out
00:10:15.85\00:10:17.22
draining someone's blood
is not an easy thing to do
00:10:17.25\00:10:19.70
and you got to
know what you're doing.
00:10:19.73\00:10:21.10
Unless if they are alive
you can do it but-- Right.
00:10:21.13\00:10:23.56
But well, and even then
you still got to know what--
00:10:23.59\00:10:25.53
you know, what to
do. Yes, of course.
00:10:25.56\00:10:26.93
And the idea that this
you know, untrained gentleman,
00:10:26.96\00:10:29.10
out, literally in
the scrub brush of Africa
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was killing these women
and draining their blood
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is just bizarre fantasy, I mean,
it just didn't happen that way.
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Yes, even after
hearing you telling
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and none of us really
know the answer to this.
00:10:38.19\00:10:40.03
Right. You've gone over the--
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Yeah, I was there
in the fall of 12.
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But an another
church representative,
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one at a time. Yes.
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So that these
several contexts but--
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and you often said that you
know, it doesn't make sense,
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but hearing you
say it makes me think
00:10:53.74\00:10:55.99
maybe the original guy they
took was coerced into confessing
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to something he knew
little than nothing about.
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Well, there's no
question of this gentleman,
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I mean, over the
internal court system
00:11:03.48\00:11:06.39
ordered him to be examined
by couple of physicians.
00:11:06.42\00:11:10.16
And the physicians talk
to him and got his story
00:11:10.19\00:11:12.50
and I mean, even
their report say that,
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you know, he make this up--
00:11:14.29\00:11:16.79
You know, this is a man who is
very susceptible to suggestion,
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there's no way he did this.
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And you know, this was just
00:11:20.42\00:11:21.79
a very marginalized individual
there in Togo who got picked up
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and you know, upon
extreme questioning
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and you know, what
would violate the constitution
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here in the United States.
00:11:28.90\00:11:30.27
You know, he would
confessed to anything
00:11:30.30\00:11:31.83
and you know it's
bizarre and it didn't happened
00:11:31.86\00:11:35.59
but you know, we met with
the government authorities,
00:11:35.62\00:11:38.23
we've met most recently
with the President of the Togo,
00:11:38.26\00:11:42.39
with the ambassadors,
with the Minister of Justice.
00:11:42.42\00:11:44.76
I met with the
Minister of Justice
00:11:44.79\00:11:46.16
when I was over there.
00:11:46.19\00:11:47.56
You know, and every--
00:11:47.59\00:11:48.96
you know, it's
not no one is saying,
00:11:48.99\00:11:50.36
"Oh he's guilty, he
needs to stay in jail."
00:11:50.39\00:11:51.76
Its like, oh let the process
work out, privately you'll hear
00:11:51.79\00:11:53.25
you know, all we know he
is innocent but we just--
00:11:53.28\00:11:54.81
But the process is not moving.
00:11:54.84\00:11:56.29
Right, and the
thing is we waste here,
00:11:56.32\00:11:57.71
I mean, I was there,
00:11:57.74\00:11:59.11
you know, as we sit here today
this is you know February 2013.
00:11:59.14\00:12:02.47
I was over there in around
Labor Day, 8th of September,
00:12:02.50\00:12:06.46
early September and
late August of 2012.
00:12:06.49\00:12:09.07
At that point, oh may
be a week, maybe two weeks
00:12:09.10\00:12:12.45
you know I mean it
was just brief time
00:12:12.48\00:12:14.77
and you know,
and we keep thinking
00:12:14.80\00:12:16.75
immediately it's going to
happen and nothing ever happens.
00:12:16.78\00:12:19.41
Yeah, the point I
want to bring out is that
00:12:19.44\00:12:21.87
here is a person of
faith in a situation
00:12:21.90\00:12:26.96
that where you
can't assume the things
00:12:26.99\00:12:28.87
that we do in a
normally Christian country
00:12:28.90\00:12:31.32
and when it goes bad for
reasons that will discover
00:12:31.35\00:12:34.58
it seems implausible
that he's directly involved.
00:12:34.61\00:12:38.00
But even if he had been guilty
00:12:38.03\00:12:40.08
of some traffic
infraction or some minor issue.
00:12:40.11\00:12:44.38
What's obvious here
and I don't know what it is
00:12:44.41\00:12:47.28
but I'm just saying
00:12:47.31\00:12:48.68
even if there were
some little trip thing
00:12:48.71\00:12:50.08
once the situation
developed its obvious here
00:12:50.11\00:12:52.68
that there is deep
antiquity, miss information
00:12:52.72\00:12:55.56
and even prejudice
against the church.
00:12:55.59\00:12:57.49
And I do see this
as someone struggling
00:12:57.52\00:13:03.23
for his faith and it's a
religious liberty question
00:13:03.26\00:13:07.43
no matter what happens
00:13:07.46\00:13:09.36
on the actual
charges that's underlying it.
00:13:09.39\00:13:13.33
We'll back after the break
00:13:13.36\00:13:14.74
because I see that
we're zooming into our time.
00:13:14.77\00:13:18.28
I want to talk more about
00:13:18.31\00:13:19.79
not so much Pastor Monteiro
but other similar cases.
00:13:19.82\00:13:22.68
So stay with us,
we'll right back.
00:13:22.71\00:13:24.67