Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000205B
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00:06 Welcome back to "Liberty Insider."
00:07 Before the break, those of you that were with us 00:10 for the whole conversation will know that with guest 00:13 Todd McFarland, Esquire, 00:15 legal council at the General Conference. 00:17 We've been talking about the need for legal council. 00:22 You know Christians obey God's law, 00:25 but we live in a civil society. 00:27 And of course there's laws and regulations 00:29 and we want to integrate those or operate within those laws, 00:34 unless they of course go against a higher law. 00:38 And we were talking about this case that's featured 00:40 in the Liberty promotion this year 00:42 down Bogalusa, Louisiana. Yeah. 00:45 Literature evangelist as we call them. 00:48 A group of young people selling, 00:49 I think they were magabooks which are really a magazine 00:52 size book length publication. 00:55 And they're really doing this to witness 00:57 and secondarily to get some money usually 01:00 for scholarships at schools. Right. 01:01 So it's not really what you would call, 01:04 you know, a money making effort. 01:05 It's witnessing with a little bit of-- 01:10 it's essentially donated money that they can use-- 01:13 Right. It's not a sales program. 01:14 It's very important. No. 01:15 That's why I'm damp like that-- 01:17 They are distributing the money free, 01:18 but they are asking for donations. 01:20 So it's putting two things together, 01:21 asking for donations and giving away free literature. 01:24 And you know, this program has 01:25 been around in some form or another since the '80s 01:28 in many regards even before then. 01:30 Yeah, with the young people since the '80s put these, 01:33 the selling, book selling or witnessing program 01:36 goes back to the beginnings 01:38 of the Adventist Church in the '1800s. 01:40 Within the Adventist community 01:41 those referred to as a big book program. 01:44 It's kind of a what they call the full time 01:45 literature evangelist to do this, 01:47 you know, and this is adult program. 01:49 You know, the summer program, 01:50 summer student missionary program 01:52 or sometimes referred to as a magabook program. 01:54 And it's more of a scholarship program. 01:56 It is a scholarship program and it was designed to, 01:59 you know, to help students. 02:00 And you know, from the conferences 02:01 and from the organizations perspectives that run. 02:04 This is not a money making issue. 02:06 I mean they always, they always put more money into it. 02:09 But it's a way to share the gospel and you know, 02:11 it's not the only way and it is certainly true 02:13 that this mechanism, you know, 02:15 we're in a different society than we were 100 years ago 02:17 or even 50 years ago or 30 years ago. 02:19 And people, you know, may not be as willing 02:21 to open the door or whatever, but it still is reaching people 02:25 that aren't necessarily be reached by other mechanisms. 02:27 I mean, you know, Christian television 02:29 for instance is a great mechanism to reach people. 02:31 But not everyone is going to turn to that type of channel. 02:34 And the other thing about the literature 02:36 is you never know where it will end up. 02:38 People, you know, get pass around. 02:40 Some may just be in the home reading it. 02:43 He doesn't even live there, maybe just visiting and so on. 02:45 And so it is a way to distribute 02:47 and get the message out in a way that you know, 02:51 is not available other ways. 02:52 And what, there are of many wonderful 02:54 heartwarming stories of people, 02:56 the young people knock on the door 02:58 at a crucial time in someone's life when they--you know, 03:01 they are just ready to-- not just to receive something, 03:04 they're desperate for a spiritual help. 03:08 And they don't know where to go in. 03:10 Here, you know, an answer to prayer literally, 03:11 they have come to the door. 03:13 So, yeah, we know this is true service 03:17 oriented activity of young people. 03:20 And of course, a young person 03:21 who's new in their commitment to the church 03:24 deciding that they want to do something 03:26 to help their fellow man 03:27 into revitalized the spiritual faith. 03:30 I mean this is an experience of a lifetime I think. 03:34 Where it confirms them as in witnessing for the Lord. 03:38 No, it absolutely is a way to reconfirm young people. 03:40 And these are usually older high school students 03:42 and college age students. 03:43 So this is you know, 16 sort of a minimum age 03:46 up through you know, 03:47 21 or so maybe 22, sometimes little older. 03:50 And there's a way for them to be recommitted. 03:52 I mean, I give these kids a lot of credit, I mean, 03:54 I would not want to go, you know, 03:56 knock on people's door all day 'cause I mean 03:57 the vast majority of these people, 03:59 you know, just say, no thank you and that's the polite answer. 04:02 Yes. No, it's not all pleasant. 04:04 No, it is not. 04:05 I mean I have some joke you know, 04:06 I've got to know this people and work with them. 04:08 I'll often joke with them, I'm like, you know, 04:09 since I'll stand out in the Supreme Court 04:11 and defend you right to do it, just don't ask me to do it. 04:13 You know, going door to door 04:15 is not something that I've ever felt or called to do. 04:18 But I know the value, but I've actually been out 04:20 with some of these young people. 04:21 But when I was the young person, 04:24 I was very shy and my father who was not shy 04:27 and was editing a temperance publication. 04:30 He took me out once to sell door to door, 04:33 back issues of the magazines that he was editing. 04:36 And it was amazing to see a master at the salesmanship, 04:41 how he approached people at the door 04:42 and then for me to try to do it. 04:46 I believe it does wonders for your spiritual commitment 04:49 because against the cutting 04:50 edge of piece of people's rejection. 04:54 Their indifference and sometimes 04:56 their incredible openness to you. 04:59 You know, you have to learn to relate to people. 05:02 And you know, in the Bible it says, 05:03 that Jesus went around as someone 05:06 that they clearly saw Him as someone wishing their good. 05:09 And I think an ally or a student evangelist like this, 05:13 they soon become very sensitive to the needs of others people. 05:16 And this is the great irony, why this policeman was so harsh, 05:21 because I don't think these young people, 05:23 after the first day, they are not in the business 05:25 of coming on hard and aggressively 05:27 and bothering people. 05:29 They're in a service oriented environment 05:32 and they will back off quickly if people shove them away. 05:35 No, and they are certainly trained and do, you know, 05:38 people say no, they understand that. 05:40 And that is the vast majority of responses 05:43 that they get is, you know, no thank you. 05:46 And they respect that and you know, 05:48 it also teaches these kids. 05:49 You know, these are teenagers 05:51 for the most part or people very close to it. 05:53 You know, to be able to communicate, 05:55 to be able to talk to adults, which you know, 05:57 often times when you are dealing with teenagers 06:00 you know, it's kind of a skill that needs to be learned. 06:03 And there's a lot of life building 06:05 in Christian ministry that's built into this program. 06:07 So, in defending Ben and his team, 06:11 I think he did more than help them 06:13 in their particular situation. 06:15 You were dealing with a huge issue of how people of faith 06:18 are going to reach out directly into the community. 06:21 Now television is fine, you know, 06:23 public evangelistic thing where 06:24 there's a billboard out front of a church 06:25 or a tent mission or whatever, that's fine. 06:28 But there's nothing like going out 06:29 and one on one talking to people. 06:32 No, it is a unique enterprise that nurtures people 06:36 that can be probably only be reached in that particular way. 06:39 And we've seen, often times this communities say, well, 06:42 you know, you are free to go door to door 06:44 and share this material, but you know, 06:47 you know, you're asking for money 06:48 so therefore it's commercial enterprise. 06:50 And that really-- first of all 06:51 it doesn't meet Supreme core test 06:53 for what is a commercial enterprise? 06:54 But more importantly-- 06:55 Well, I want to talk about that in another program. 06:57 The act of people when they give money even though 07:02 it isn't the selling, people give something. 07:04 They value more, it's a way of gauging interest, 07:07 it's a way of engaging people. 07:08 You know, when you talk to these student literature evangelists 07:10 and they do and can and do give the books away 07:13 without getting a donation. 07:14 But it doesn't happen often 'cause usually--if people 07:16 are interested in the books, they are more than 07:18 happy to help the students out. 07:20 It's not a sale, but the idea of that well, you know, 07:23 I like the book but you know, 07:24 I don't want to give you, you know, 07:26 $10 or $15 it just doesn't really happen. 07:28 And it's a way to make people both value the material 07:31 and therefore more likely to read it. 07:33 My father, referring to him again 07:36 was a literature evangelist before he went 07:39 on to other jobs within the church. 07:41 He's long dead now. 07:42 But he took salesmanship courses 07:45 and I remember him telling me. 07:47 He says, it's the sizzle you're selling not the stake. 07:49 Yeah. 07:51 And I really believe, you know, 07:52 whether there's money involved in these books. 07:56 That's not what's going on, 07:57 it's not a financial transaction. 08:00 These young people are offering 08:01 something that has life to these people. 08:05 It tells them how to deal with this life 08:07 and how to relate to the next life. 08:09 And that sizzle is exciting and that's what sets 08:15 the young people on fire I think with Christian witness 08:19 and where they, where they find a needy person. 08:22 You know that person would pay any price for it. 08:24 The money is irrelevant to this. 08:27 They are dealing with friend centre values. 08:29 It is. 08:30 And you know, you need these people 08:32 are interested in the books for variety of reasons. 08:33 And there's a whole range of books. 08:35 I mean there's, you know, pure message books 08:37 like "Great Controversy" or "Desire of Ages." 08:39 There's health books. 08:41 There is children's books to teach, you know, 08:43 the material for the, you know, I'm a student. 08:46 You know like Bible story type books. 08:48 There are books about health and there's also cooking books. 08:51 In the cooking books of course are less overtly religious. 08:55 But they have religious messages built in them, 08:57 they have text, they have-- 08:58 in the back they have the ability to get more 09:00 direct message books if they would like. 09:02 And it's also the good way to sort of introduce things 09:04 and often times you get several books 09:06 and so maybe a cooking book and a message book 09:07 and a kid's book and it's a way to engage people. 09:11 And what you're saying a true Christian 09:14 and I believe anyone of-- deeply health faith. 09:16 They are not particularly in the business of-- 09:20 I'm trying to turn you around so that you become like them. 09:24 They're in the business of communicating 09:26 something exciting that they know about. 09:29 So there's a positive side to this. 09:31 And this is what I want to communicate to our viewers 09:33 with Liberty Magazine, with religious liberty. 09:36 Yes, there's a legal side to it, 09:38 we're gonna spend a lot of time 09:40 talking about that may be in some later programs. 09:43 But at the end of day we're talking about 09:47 something that's exciting, that's emotionally rewarding 09:50 for someone to know the-- as far as religious liberty 09:53 that you're free because, you know, 09:55 of what God did on your behalf. 09:57 Now in the civil context 09:59 you're just putting that into action. 10:01 And it's nice if there's laws to facilitate that, 10:03 but that's not what it's about, 10:05 religious freedom is something exciting and inherent. 10:08 And these young people were exercising 10:10 that inherent right and it's very unfortunate 10:13 that not so much because of bad law, 10:16 and you've pointed out that the law is okay, 10:18 but they are administrating it badly. 10:20 But because of bad attitudes 10:21 people felt that they can restrict this. 10:23 Yeah. I like to pick up and I just briefly. 10:25 So the constitutional-- the federal laws 10:27 is actually pretty good on this. 10:29 But what you find is-- Local ordinances. 10:32 Yeah, local ordnances are just shockingly badly written. 10:35 I mean, our normal process when our students 10:37 get in trouble is we call the city attorney 10:39 and work that in the vast majority of times, 10:40 I mean the vast majority of times we work it out. 10:43 And I don't know how many times 10:44 I've talked to a city attorney who's never read this before, 10:47 who's sort of for the first time, you know, 10:50 is reading this is like yeah, this is a problem. 10:52 He certainly sees it. Yeah, they sees-- 10:53 So in a way you're in your own mission field there-- 10:55 That's the only way to look at it. 10:57 I don't know if the city attorney feels that way. 10:59 But I know on Sabbath accommodation 11:01 cases very often only employee 11:03 who needs to know is to reminded, 11:05 they may not have even quite thought about it, 11:07 that there are certain inherent rights for this 11:09 person of faith to practice in the workplace. 11:11 Right. And they are, absolutely. 11:13 So what's your take away from this case then? 11:18 We know, the important thing about religious liberty, 11:21 in defending religious liberty is that you don't have 11:23 rights unless you stand up for them. 11:25 You know, Paul and his ministry 11:27 counseled that when him and Cyrus were flying. 11:30 He mentioned that he was a Roman citizen. 11:32 He invoked his rights as a Roman citizen. 11:35 And that's what we do in this context 11:36 in the United States and Canada 11:38 and around the world is, we're invoking rights. 11:40 And there's nothing wrong with that, 11:41 there's nothing unbiblical about that. 11:43 And we don't have rights unless 11:44 we are willing to stand up for them. 11:46 Court is the last approach, 11:47 but we're always willing to do that if need be. 11:51 Some of Jesus most scathing comments 11:54 were directed that describes in the Pharisees of His day. 11:58 But some of the most contentious debates 12:01 that He had were with the lawyers of His day. 12:05 Few people stopped to think when they read the word lawyer. 12:09 But the lawyers then were the professors of the law, 12:12 but the biblical law, the Torah. 12:15 They were the ones that could interpret it 12:17 and apply it to the society and of course it was 12:20 far more of a theologically oriented society. 12:23 Today, when we speak of lawyers 12:25 we're talking about people schooled in civil law, 12:28 often with very little if any relevance 12:32 to the morality and the spirituality of religion. 12:36 But today, churches just like any other aspect 12:40 to start society need lawyers 12:43 because this is a litigious time. 12:48 What we need though are lawyers 12:50 not stuck on the wrong points of the law 12:53 as they were in Jesus' day. 12:54 But we need lawyers that can bring together 12:57 the needs of civil law, with the high aims 13:00 of spirituality exemplified in the law 13:03 and the instructions of God, this I believe. 13:08 For "Liberty Insider", this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17