Welcome back to
"Liberty Insider."
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Before the break, those
of you that were with us
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for the whole conversation
will know that with guest
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Todd McFarland, Esquire,
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legal council at
the General Conference.
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We've been talking about
the need for legal council.
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You know
Christians obey God's law,
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but we live in a civil society.
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And of course
there's laws and regulations
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and we want to integrate those
or operate within those laws,
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unless they of course
go against a higher law.
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And we were talking
about this case that's featured
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in the Liberty
promotion this year
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down Bogalusa, Louisiana. Yeah.
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Literature
evangelist as we call them.
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A group of young people selling,
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I think they were magabooks
which are really a magazine
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size book length publication.
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And they're really
doing this to witness
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and secondarily to
get some money usually
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for scholarships
at schools. Right.
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So it's not really
what you would call,
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you know, a money making effort.
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It's witnessing
with a little bit of--
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it's essentially donated
money that they can use--
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Right. It's not a sales program.
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It's very important. No.
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That's why I'm damp like that--
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They are
distributing the money free,
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but they are
asking for donations.
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So it's putting
two things together,
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asking for donations and
giving away free literature.
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And you know, this program has
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been around in some form
or another since the '80s
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in many regards
even before then.
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Yeah, with the young
people since the '80s put these,
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the selling, book
selling or witnessing program
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goes back to the beginnings
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of the Adventist
Church in the '1800s.
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Within the Adventist community
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those referred to
as a big book program.
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It's kind of a what
they call the full time
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literature
evangelist to do this,
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you know, and
this is adult program.
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You know, the summer program,
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summer student
missionary program
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or sometimes referred
to as a magabook program.
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And it's more of a
scholarship program.
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It is a scholarship
program and it was designed to,
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you know, to help students.
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And you know,
from the conferences
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and from the organizations
perspectives that run.
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This is not a
money making issue.
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I mean they always, they
always put more money into it.
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But it's a way to share
the gospel and you know,
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it's not the only way
and it is certainly true
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that this mechanism, you know,
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we're in a different society
than we were 100 years ago
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or even 50 years
ago or 30 years ago.
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And people, you
know, may not be as willing
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to open the door or whatever,
but it still is reaching people
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that aren't necessarily be
reached by other mechanisms.
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I mean, you know,
Christian television
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for instance is a great
mechanism to reach people.
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But not everyone is going to
turn to that type of channel.
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And the other thing
about the literature
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is you never know
where it will end up.
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People, you
know, get pass around.
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Some may just be in
the home reading it.
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He doesn't even live there,
maybe just visiting and so on.
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And so it is a way to distribute
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and get the message
out in a way that you know,
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is not available other ways.
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And what, there
are of many wonderful
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heartwarming stories of people,
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the young people
knock on the door
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at a crucial time in someone's
life when they--you know,
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they are just ready to--
not just to receive something,
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they're desperate
for a spiritual help.
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And they don't
know where to go in.
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Here, you know, an
answer to prayer literally,
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they have come to the door.
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So, yeah, we know
this is true service
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oriented
activity of young people.
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And of course, a young person
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who's new in their
commitment to the church
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deciding that they
want to do something
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to help their fellow man
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into revitalized
the spiritual faith.
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I mean this is an experience
of a lifetime I think.
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Where it confirms them as
in witnessing for the Lord.
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No, it absolutely is a
way to reconfirm young people.
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And these are usually
older high school students
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and college age students.
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So this is you know,
16 sort of a minimum age
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up through you know,
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21 or so maybe 22,
sometimes little older.
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And there's a way for
them to be recommitted.
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I mean, I give these
kids a lot of credit, I mean,
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I would not
want to go, you know,
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knock on people's
door all day 'cause I mean
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the vast
majority of these people,
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you know, just say, no thank you
and that's the polite answer.
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Yes. No, it's not all pleasant.
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No, it is not.
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I mean I have
some joke you know,
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I've got to know this
people and work with them.
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I'll often joke with
them, I'm like, you know,
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since I'll stand
out in the Supreme Court
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and defend you right to do
it, just don't ask me to do it.
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You know, going door to door
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is not something that
I've ever felt or called to do.
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But I know the value,
but I've actually been out
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with some of these young people.
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But when I was the young person,
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I was very shy and my
father who was not shy
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and was editing a
temperance publication.
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He took me out once
to sell door to door,
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back issues of the
magazines that he was editing.
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And it was amazing to see
a master at the salesmanship,
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how he approached
people at the door
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and then for me to try to do it.
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I believe it does wonders
for your spiritual commitment
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because against the cutting
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edge of piece of
people's rejection.
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Their indifference and sometimes
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their
incredible openness to you.
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You know, you have to
learn to relate to people.
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And you know, in
the Bible it says,
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that Jesus went
around as someone
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that they clearly saw Him
as someone wishing their good.
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And I think an ally or a
student evangelist like this,
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they soon become very sensitive
to the needs of others people.
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And this is the great irony,
why this policeman was so harsh,
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because I don't
think these young people,
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after the first day,
they are not in the business
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of coming on
hard and aggressively
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and bothering people.
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They're in a
service oriented environment
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and they will back off quickly
if people shove them away.
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No, and they are certainly
trained and do, you know,
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people say no,
they understand that.
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And that is the vast
majority of responses
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that they get is,
you know, no thank you.
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And they respect
that and you know,
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it also teaches these kids.
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You know, these are teenagers
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for the most part or
people very close to it.
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You know, to be
able to communicate,
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to be able to talk to
adults, which you know,
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often times when you
are dealing with teenagers
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you know, it's kind of a
skill that needs to be learned.
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And there's a
lot of life building
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in Christian ministry
that's built into this program.
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So, in defending
Ben and his team,
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I think he did
more than help them
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in their particular situation.
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You were dealing with a huge
issue of how people of faith
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are going to reach out
directly into the community.
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Now television
is fine, you know,
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public evangelistic thing where
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there's a billboard
out front of a church
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or a tent mission or
whatever, that's fine.
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But there's
nothing like going out
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and one on one
talking to people.
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No, it is a unique
enterprise that nurtures people
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that can be probably only be
reached in that particular way.
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And we've seen, often times
this communities say, well,
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you know, you are
free to go door to door
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and share this
material, but you know,
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you know,
you're asking for money
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so therefore it's
commercial enterprise.
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And that really-- first of all
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it doesn't meet
Supreme core test
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for what is a
commercial enterprise?
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But more importantly--
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Well, I want to talk
about that in another program.
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The act of people when
they give money even though
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it isn't the selling,
people give something.
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They value more, it's a
way of gauging interest,
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it's a way of engaging people.
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You know, when you talk to these
student literature evangelists
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and they do and can
and do give the books away
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without getting a donation.
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But it doesn't happen
often 'cause usually--if people
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are interested in the
books, they are more than
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happy to help the students out.
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It's not a sale, but the
idea of that well, you know,
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I like the book but you know,
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I don't want to
give you, you know,
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$10 or $15 it just
doesn't really happen.
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And it's a way to make
people both value the material
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and therefore
more likely to read it.
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My father,
referring to him again
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was a literature
evangelist before he went
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on to other jobs
within the church.
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He's long dead now.
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But he took salesmanship courses
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and I remember him telling me.
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He says, it's the sizzle
you're selling not the stake.
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Yeah.
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And I really believe, you know,
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whether there's money
involved in these books.
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That's not what's going on,
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it's not a
financial transaction.
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These young people are offering
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something that has
life to these people.
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It tells them how
to deal with this life
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and how to
relate to the next life.
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And that sizzle is
exciting and that's what sets
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the young people on fire I
think with Christian witness
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and where they, where
they find a needy person.
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You know that person
would pay any price for it.
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The money is irrelevant to this.
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They are dealing
with friend centre values.
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It is.
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And you know,
you need these people
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are interested in the
books for variety of reasons.
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And there's a
whole range of books.
00:08:33.72\00:08:35.09
I mean there's, you
know, pure message books
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like "Great Controversy"
or "Desire of Ages."
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There's health books.
00:08:39.77\00:08:41.14
There is children's
books to teach, you know,
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the material for the,
you know, I'm a student.
00:08:43.24\00:08:46.71
You know like
Bible story type books.
00:08:46.74\00:08:48.84
There are books about health
and there's also cooking books.
00:08:48.87\00:08:51.95
In the cooking books of course
are less overtly religious.
00:08:51.98\00:08:55.10
But they have religious
messages built in them,
00:08:55.13\00:08:57.01
they have text, they have--
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in the back they have
the ability to get more
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direct message
books if they would like.
00:09:00.18\00:09:02.64
And it's also the good way
to sort of introduce things
00:09:02.67\00:09:04.89
and often times
you get several books
00:09:04.92\00:09:06.38
and so maybe a cooking
book and a message book
00:09:06.41\00:09:07.96
and a kid's book and
it's a way to engage people.
00:09:07.99\00:09:11.34
And what you're
saying a true Christian
00:09:11.37\00:09:14.03
and I believe anyone
of-- deeply health faith.
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They are not particularly
in the business of--
00:09:16.94\00:09:20.56
I'm trying to turn you around
so that you become like them.
00:09:20.59\00:09:24.32
They're in the
business of communicating
00:09:24.35\00:09:26.08
something exciting
that they know about.
00:09:26.11\00:09:29.02
So there's a
positive side to this.
00:09:29.05\00:09:31.58
And this is what I want
to communicate to our viewers
00:09:31.61\00:09:33.71
with Liberty Magazine,
with religious liberty.
00:09:33.74\00:09:36.87
Yes, there's a legal side to it,
00:09:36.90\00:09:38.27
we're gonna spend a lot of time
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talking about that may
be in some later programs.
00:09:40.15\00:09:43.83
But at the end of
day we're talking about
00:09:43.86\00:09:47.00
something that's exciting,
that's emotionally rewarding
00:09:47.03\00:09:50.20
for someone to know the--
as far as religious liberty
00:09:50.23\00:09:53.49
that you're free
because, you know,
00:09:53.52\00:09:55.60
of what God did on your behalf.
00:09:55.63\00:09:57.61
Now in the civil context
00:09:57.64\00:09:59.58
you're just
putting that into action.
00:09:59.61\00:10:00.98
And it's nice if
there's laws to facilitate that,
00:10:01.01\00:10:03.66
but that's not what it's about,
00:10:03.69\00:10:05.06
religious freedom is
something exciting and inherent.
00:10:05.09\00:10:07.97
And these young
people were exercising
00:10:08.00\00:10:10.67
that inherent right
and it's very unfortunate
00:10:10.70\00:10:13.96
that not so much
because of bad law,
00:10:13.99\00:10:16.39
and you've pointed
out that the law is okay,
00:10:16.42\00:10:18.44
but they are
administrating it badly.
00:10:18.47\00:10:20.12
But because of bad attitudes
00:10:20.15\00:10:21.70
people felt that
they can restrict this.
00:10:21.73\00:10:23.78
Yeah. I like to pick
up and I just briefly.
00:10:23.81\00:10:25.29
So the constitutional--
the federal laws
00:10:25.32\00:10:27.96
is actually pretty good on this.
00:10:27.99\00:10:29.52
But what you find
is-- Local ordinances.
00:10:29.55\00:10:31.99
Yeah, local ordnances are
just shockingly badly written.
00:10:32.02\00:10:35.25
I mean, our normal
process when our students
00:10:35.28\00:10:37.43
get in trouble is we
call the city attorney
00:10:37.46\00:10:39.02
and work that in the
vast majority of times,
00:10:39.05\00:10:40.56
I mean the vast majority
of times we work it out.
00:10:40.59\00:10:43.10
And I don't know how many times
00:10:43.13\00:10:44.50
I've talked to a city attorney
who's never read this before,
00:10:44.53\00:10:47.56
who's sort of for
the first time, you know,
00:10:47.59\00:10:50.28
is reading this is like
yeah, this is a problem.
00:10:50.31\00:10:52.31
He certainly sees
it. Yeah, they sees--
00:10:52.34\00:10:53.71
So in a way you're in
your own mission field there--
00:10:53.74\00:10:55.66
That's the only
way to look at it.
00:10:55.69\00:10:57.37
I don't know if the
city attorney feels that way.
00:10:57.40\00:10:59.82
But I know on
Sabbath accommodation
00:10:59.85\00:11:01.40
cases very often only employee
00:11:01.43\00:11:03.74
who needs to
know is to reminded,
00:11:03.77\00:11:05.40
they may not have even
quite thought about it,
00:11:05.43\00:11:07.15
that there are certain
inherent rights for this
00:11:07.18\00:11:09.38
person of faith to
practice in the workplace.
00:11:09.41\00:11:11.87
Right. And they are, absolutely.
00:11:11.90\00:11:13.68
So what's your take
away from this case then?
00:11:13.71\00:11:18.68
We know, the important
thing about religious liberty,
00:11:18.71\00:11:21.09
in defending religious
liberty is that you don't have
00:11:21.12\00:11:23.45
rights unless you
stand up for them.
00:11:23.48\00:11:25.64
You know, Paul and his ministry
00:11:25.67\00:11:27.36
counseled that when
him and Cyrus were flying.
00:11:27.39\00:11:30.84
He mentioned that
he was a Roman citizen.
00:11:30.87\00:11:32.42
He invoked his
rights as a Roman citizen.
00:11:32.45\00:11:35.22
And that's what
we do in this context
00:11:35.25\00:11:36.89
in the United States and Canada
00:11:36.92\00:11:38.29
and around the world
is, we're invoking rights.
00:11:38.32\00:11:40.21
And there's
nothing wrong with that,
00:11:40.24\00:11:41.61
there's nothing
unbiblical about that.
00:11:41.64\00:11:43.29
And we don't have rights unless
00:11:43.32\00:11:44.89
we are willing to
stand up for them.
00:11:44.92\00:11:46.29
Court is the last approach,
00:11:46.32\00:11:47.88
but we're always
willing to do that if need be.
00:11:47.91\00:11:49.71
Some of Jesus
most scathing comments
00:11:51.67\00:11:54.18
were directed that describes
in the Pharisees of His day.
00:11:54.21\00:11:58.85
But some of the
most contentious debates
00:11:58.88\00:12:01.12
that He had were with
the lawyers of His day.
00:12:01.15\00:12:05.53
Few people stopped to think
when they read the word lawyer.
00:12:05.56\00:12:09.42
But the lawyers then were
the professors of the law,
00:12:09.45\00:12:12.48
but the biblical law, the Torah.
00:12:12.51\00:12:15.17
They were the ones
that could interpret it
00:12:15.20\00:12:17.38
and apply it to the
society and of course it was
00:12:17.41\00:12:20.03
far more of a
theologically oriented society.
00:12:20.06\00:12:23.47
Today, when we speak of lawyers
00:12:23.50\00:12:25.32
we're talking about
people schooled in civil law,
00:12:25.35\00:12:28.34
often with very
little if any relevance
00:12:28.37\00:12:32.31
to the morality and the
spirituality of religion.
00:12:32.34\00:12:36.37
But today, churches
just like any other aspect
00:12:36.40\00:12:40.42
to start society need lawyers
00:12:40.45\00:12:43.58
because this is
a litigious time.
00:12:43.61\00:12:48.26
What we need though are lawyers
00:12:48.29\00:12:50.64
not stuck on the
wrong points of the law
00:12:50.67\00:12:53.14
as they were in Jesus' day.
00:12:53.17\00:12:54.54
But we need lawyers
that can bring together
00:12:54.57\00:12:57.02
the needs of civil
law, with the high aims
00:12:57.05\00:13:00.59
of spirituality
exemplified in the law
00:13:00.62\00:13:03.24
and the instructions
of God, this I believe.
00:13:03.27\00:13:06.82
For "Liberty
Insider", this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:08.28\00:13:11.17