Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Todd McFarland
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000205A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program that brings you discussion, 00:26 news, views, up-to-date information 00:29 on religious liberty issues 00:31 in the United States and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:37 And I have a very special guest on the program today. 00:39 Someone that I worked fairly closely with, 00:42 Todd McFarland Esquire. Yes. 00:44 You're an Associate General Counsel 00:46 at the General Conference headquarters 00:48 in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:49 But more importantly you work very closely 00:51 with Liberty as legal council 00:53 for the religious liberty program. 00:56 Oh, yeah, I have the privilege of being 00:57 legal council and even from time to time 00:59 I write an article for Liberty. 01:00 Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm very slow off the mark. 01:05 Let's talk a little bit about 01:07 the office of legal council generally 01:09 and then maybe bring it down to Liberty Magazine. 01:11 But why would a church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:14 have a--an in-house office of lawyers? 01:18 Because we need it. 01:19 People are often surprised about that, 01:21 I spent more of my life on planes 01:22 then I probably should or I like to and, you know, 01:26 you'll be talking to a person and they say, what you do? 01:28 I'm a lawyer. Where do you work? 01:29 You know, and I'll say for the church. 01:31 And people often are shocked like, 01:32 why do you need lawyers for? 01:34 Well, we have six of them. 01:35 And, you know, 01:36 and they represent the General Conference 01:38 in the North American Division as well, 01:39 those two entities and as well as a couple of others. 01:43 And, you know, the reality 01:44 is the church is a large organization 01:45 and staying out of trouble is important. 01:49 Yeah, 'cause we do the right thing, 01:52 but legal issues I know are very complicated 01:55 and we need legal advice. 01:58 But, you know, in the Bible. 01:59 I was gonna tease you on this. 02:01 I'm surprised I hadn't before. 02:02 You know, in the Bible Jesus has had said 02:04 some of His worst problems with lawyers, 02:07 although I'm using the occasion to tell our viewers. 02:10 We should be careful on the Bible. 02:12 What it says, lawyers, 02:13 these were people of religious law. 02:15 Right. Of theology basically. 02:18 But, you know, we've always said 02:20 and then religious liberty we say all the time separation 02:22 between the civil affairs and religious affairs 02:25 and it would same with an office of legal council. 02:28 We're bridging it in a very dynamic way, aren't we? 02:31 Well, you know, we talk about 02:33 the separation of church and state. 02:35 And while the Adventist Church 02:36 certainly believes in that and advocates with that. 02:39 You never gonna be able to completely 02:41 separate yourself from the legal framework. 02:43 For instance, you know, one of the areas 02:44 that we work in is contracts. 02:46 So, you know, we have conferences, 02:48 we have hotel contracts, 02:49 we have meeting contracts and so forth. 02:51 And there is no way to get around that, I mean, 02:53 of course the state is gonna regulate something like that. 02:55 And you know, the church in the past, 02:56 because it hasn't paid attention to that, 02:58 has lost a lot of money 'cause of those. 02:59 So, you know, one of the things our office 03:01 does I don't do it, is we review all contracts 03:04 with the General Conference in North American Division. 03:06 Trust in the states, we have another lawyer 03:08 who and people want to leave their money 03:10 to the church through will, 03:12 he runs the training program for that 03:14 and gives legal advice to that. 03:15 That's true and traditionally within our organization 03:19 out in the unions and in the local conferences 03:22 these are the subdivisions below our 03:25 leadership in a whole region or, 03:28 you know, we have the general conference for the world. 03:29 I'm trying to explain for some 03:31 who may not know the Adventist Church. 03:32 We have a world leadership and then we've divided 03:36 the world up into quadrants very much like the US military. 03:40 But we have North America which is Canada, 03:42 the United States and Bermuda interestingly enough. 03:45 Don't forget Guam and Wake Island now. 03:46 That's true, that's new. 03:50 And very often in those not so much at the division, 03:54 but usually at the union level 03:56 the person who does religious liberty 03:57 also does trust, trust services. 04:00 I think the connection is that there's 04:01 a legal element, isn't there? 04:03 Yeah. 04:04 And some of those people who have done 04:06 both of the trust side and legal side. 04:07 Though, I don't have anything to do with trusts. 04:09 We have another lawyer who handles 04:11 intellectual properties, so defending the church's name, 04:14 its trademark and also copyright work for-- 04:17 when the church, you know, has its own television network, 04:21 Hope Channel and is legal advisor to them. 04:23 And then we have another lawyer 04:25 who does our immigration work. 04:26 You know, the world headquarter 04:28 of the Adventist Church has people 04:29 from all over the world working there. 04:31 And most of those including yourself 04:34 and most of those individuals 04:36 needs some type of visa or permission 04:38 to work in United States while we're working there 04:39 and also our human resources work. 04:41 Yeah. 04:42 We slid on that before but I should 04:44 take the opportunity to mention 04:45 what I've never mentioned before. 04:47 The trusts and the quest 04:49 that's not a theoretical issue for Liberty Magazine 04:52 in the past particularly people were able to designate 04:57 some of their property to Liberty Magazine. 05:02 And people could trust. In the trust. 05:03 Right, and people can-- 05:04 And we would still welcome that. 05:06 Yes, no, people are more than free to do that and, 05:09 you know, our office while we were just 05:11 technically legal advisors to the General Conference 05:13 in North American Division, 05:15 is two entities that take care of 05:16 the United States in the world church. 05:17 We also give advice and your calls 05:19 and questions from church membership 05:21 or leadership throughout the United States. 05:23 And we also get calls, you know, 05:25 one of the thing I handles with religious liberty, 05:28 you know, when church members have religious liberty issues 05:30 often times they call the General Conference 05:31 and those calls get directed towards us. 05:33 Yeah, and this is really 05:35 where I wanted to direct our discussion, 05:38 because you're just not there 05:39 if we have legal problems with the magazine 05:41 which you and your department do deal with 05:43 because we even have some legal goings on about registering 05:49 the name Liberty Magazine curiously you know. 05:52 Most people don't realize 05:53 that book titles are not copyrightable, 05:55 but magazine titles 05:57 and the whole identity is very much a legal issue. 06:00 Right, it can be trademarked. 06:02 But when we're talking about religious liberty the key thing 06:06 for many Seventh-day Adventist members I know is, 06:09 will our religious liberty department 06:11 defend them if they have a problem 06:13 usually in the workplace or something 06:16 about their daily life where their faith 06:17 gets in the way of earning a living 06:20 and functioning within a community. 06:23 We do all the time and that's what my office 06:26 primarily handles is representing church members 06:29 and the organization as well that is suffering 06:32 from religious discrimination in all types of contacts. 06:35 But the workplace context is what comes up most. 06:38 We also do it in, you know, 06:40 door-to-door literature evangelist contacts, 06:41 we do it in the prison context. 06:43 We represent the church members 06:44 in prison they've had problems. 06:46 Maybe we can talk at some length about the prisons. 06:48 I have a real issue on that. Yeah. 06:50 But you're right there's a whole wider range of context 06:54 where religious liberty needs defending legalism. 06:58 What--you know, you've been in this job 06:59 how many years now? 07:01 Seven years, right, seven years. 07:02 I was gonna guess six so I'm close. 07:04 No, seven. 07:05 Six is a bad number, you know, better to be seven. 07:07 Seven is the perfect number, six. 07:11 But in the time that you've been doing this-- 07:14 what was the most interesting case 07:16 or the most complex case that sort of 07:18 was remarkable when you look back on it. 07:20 Well-- That sort of surprised you. 07:22 Yeah, I mean, there has been a lot of interesting cases. 07:25 I can remember a few myself. 07:26 Yeah, you know, they all sort of, I mean, 07:30 I would hate to pick one out. 07:32 You know, probably one of the most 07:33 interesting one's-- there was one of 07:34 the first cases that which was Todd Sturgill 07:37 versus UPS and that went all the way to the circuit, 07:39 we got a good decision on that. 07:42 We have some other cases 07:43 that are pending in the public courts right now 07:45 that it provides interesting stuff. 07:47 Our most recent case on first amendment 07:48 the door-to-door literature evangelist 07:50 work is interesting and different. 07:52 So there's been a whole range of stuff, 07:54 it's been interesting. 07:56 Yeah and you brought that up quicker than I thought, 07:59 but this is a brochure that we send 08:01 around as part of our awareness campaign this year. 08:05 And it featured this literature evangelist 08:08 case down and was a-- 08:10 Bogalusa, Louisiana. Bogalusa. 08:11 Which is not in the materials actually. 08:13 We didn't say it in the video or in the materials, 08:15 but it's Bogalusa, Louisiana. 08:16 Oh, I think it's says it here. 08:17 Does it say in-- Bogalusa, Louisiana. 08:20 Not a name that comes trippingly out of the tongue. 08:23 I think its Shakespeare's, 08:25 but a very important case, wasn't it? 08:27 And the issue is vital to Christian witness 08:30 not just to book selling program 08:33 which is legitimate and a long standing 08:36 for the church but this is a matter of Christian witness. 08:38 It is. 08:39 And you know, its important that we stand up for this, 08:40 'cause, you know, these small communities, 08:42 I mean, you know, not to be smudge 08:44 the name of Bogalusa, Louisiana, 08:46 but it's not the most let's say diverse and open community. 08:50 And when someone comes in who is from the outside 08:53 they're not necessarily very open to it 08:54 and in that case is the video and materials made clear. 08:56 They were very hostile in trying to enforce a law 08:59 that was clearly unconstitutional. 09:02 I mean, it was so unconstitutional, you know, 09:04 the prosecutor who kept trying to ignore me 09:06 really literally would not take my phone calls, 09:08 eventually three days before had to drop the case. 09:12 Now can we go back and we've got a few minutes. 09:15 What was the scenario? What are we talking about? 09:17 So Ben Allis was working as 09:19 the student literature evangelist 09:20 in the city of Bogalusa, Louisiana. 09:22 He was the coordinator working for it-- 09:23 Yes, he was the coordinator but he was also 09:25 going door-to-door himself and one morning as he was-- 09:28 dropping his kids off a police officer came up 09:33 and stopped him and arrested him 09:36 even before he'd gone door-to-door that day. 09:38 I mean, she really didn't have a basis to arrest him. 09:40 She hadn't seen him doing anything illegal 09:41 even under their own ordinance. 09:43 She just assumed he was going to, 09:46 arrested him, handcuffed him 09:47 and put him back in the squad car, took him to jail. 09:49 And it was very, you know, unprofessional about it. 09:52 It was very hostile about it, you know, 09:56 they humiliated him, and you know, 09:57 and belittled him as cops have been 10:00 known to do from time to time. 10:01 And what was the logic there because you would think 10:03 this would be a matter-- they would be a fine for it 10:06 wasn't it--the charge something to do 10:08 was no license to-- 10:09 Yeah, no, no all these ordinances, I mean, 10:11 a fine is what normally happens, I mean many times-- 10:14 You know, there will be a citation and a summons. 10:16 That's normally how it's done, 10:17 but this is part of her being very hostile 10:18 was she simply, you know, was gonna haul him off to jail, 10:21 and it's true that under this ordinance, 10:23 you know, you could get jail time. 10:25 Normally these ordinance enforcement at least for 10:28 most--is quite frankly a revenue generator. 10:31 But this one for whatever reason 10:33 she decided to take personally-- 10:35 But I still, you know, I'm a legal Laban. 10:37 Yes. 10:39 Capital L, but it would seem to me 10:42 the jail time wouldn't that be 10:44 administered by the judge, not, I mean, 10:46 how could a policemen determine 10:48 right up front that this is you to be arrested 10:51 and put in jail for something that's not misdemeanor, is it? 10:55 Yeah, it was-- It's not a-- 10:56 The felony. 10:58 It's not a felony, it's a misdemeanor. 10:59 Well, you can be thrown in a jail for misdemeanors. 11:01 Usually as a consequence of not dealing 11:03 with the money penalty, right? 11:06 The way the law works is she had I mean, you know, 11:09 she had the right to arrest him. 11:10 I mean, she didn't because 11:12 it was unconstitutional about the ordinance 11:13 and their enforcement application to it. 11:15 But no, I mean, it was a serious enough offence 11:18 that pretrial detention is the technical legal term for it 11:22 that was probably-- now he bailed out immediately 11:25 and he did not spend, I mean, his time in jail was hours, 11:28 I mean, let's not, you know, I don't, you sound like, 11:30 you know, spent the night in the clinic so to speak. 11:32 But still he went out to jail. 11:34 He was held in a cell and, you know, 11:36 and then if they hadn't bailed him out that night, 11:38 he would have been, he would have stayed there. 11:41 Yeah, that's incredible for not just a minor thing 11:45 but a thing so patently connected with church, 11:48 regular church activities and witness an altruistic activity. 11:53 Right. And there was no accusation. 11:55 He was trying to defraud anyone or you know-- 11:58 So what did she say? 11:59 What was the initial come on it apart 12:00 from a hostile approach, but what was so offensive? 12:05 Well, I think one of the things that she was upset 12:07 about was that she felt that they have been 12:10 told even though-- no one had ever talked to that man. 12:12 She felt that these individuals have been 12:14 told not to come back in town. 12:16 And there may have been some conversations 12:18 with other people, but it wasn't with Ben. 12:20 You know, he didn't have any knowledge of the prior of 12:23 what that have been worked out lately. 12:24 But they had made a preliminary contact with him didn't they? 12:27 As they would normally do and you'd expect. 12:30 And they had send an email to the chief of police that, 12:32 you know, his supervisor and so forth 12:33 that the issue is taken care of, but, you know, 12:36 the law enforcement was just not very happy 12:39 to see them and you know made that norm. 12:43 Interesting. 12:44 We'll be back after the break 12:46 to maybe discuss a little bit more 12:48 the ramifications of this type of the legal challenge 12:51 to what most people take for granted as their right 12:54 and indeed as a Christian an obligation to share. 12:56 We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17