Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you discussion,
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news, views,
up-to-date information
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on religious liberty issues
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And I have a very special
guest on the program today.
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Someone that I
worked fairly closely with,
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Todd McFarland Esquire. Yes.
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You're an
Associate General Counsel
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at the General
Conference headquarters
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in Silver Spring, Maryland.
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But more importantly
you work very closely
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with Liberty as legal council
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for the
religious liberty program.
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Oh, yeah, I have
the privilege of being
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legal council and
even from time to time
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I write an article for Liberty.
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Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
I'm very slow off the mark.
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Let's talk a little bit about
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the office of
legal council generally
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and then maybe bring it
down to Liberty Magazine.
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But why would a church, the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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have a--an
in-house office of lawyers?
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Because we need it.
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People are often
surprised about that,
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I spent more of
my life on planes
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then I probably should
or I like to and, you know,
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you'll be talking to a person
and they say, what you do?
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I'm a lawyer. Where do you work?
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You know, and I'll
say for the church.
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And people often
are shocked like,
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why do you need lawyers for?
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Well, we have six of them.
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And, you know,
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and they represent
the General Conference
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in the North
American Division as well,
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those two entities and as
well as a couple of others.
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And, you know, the reality
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is the church is
a large organization
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and staying out of
trouble is important.
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Yeah, 'cause we
do the right thing,
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but legal issues I
know are very complicated
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and we need legal advice.
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But, you know, in the Bible.
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I was gonna tease you on this.
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I'm surprised I hadn't before.
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You know, in the
Bible Jesus has had said
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some of His worst
problems with lawyers,
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although I'm using the
occasion to tell our viewers.
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We should be
careful on the Bible.
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What it says, lawyers,
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these were
people of religious law.
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Right. Of theology basically.
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But, you know, we've always said
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and then religious liberty
we say all the time separation
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between the civil
affairs and religious affairs
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and it would same with
an office of legal council.
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We're bridging it in a
very dynamic way, aren't we?
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Well, you know, we talk about
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the separation
of church and state.
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And while the Adventist Church
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certainly believes in
that and advocates with that.
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You never gonna
be able to completely
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separate yourself
from the legal framework.
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For instance, you
know, one of the areas
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that we work in is contracts.
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So, you know, we
have conferences,
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we have hotel contracts,
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we have meeting
contracts and so forth.
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And there is no way to
get around that, I mean,
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of course the state is gonna
regulate something like that.
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And you know, the
church in the past,
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because it hasn't
paid attention to that,
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has lost a lot of
money 'cause of those.
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So, you know, one of
the things our office
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does I don't do it, is
we review all contracts
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with the General Conference
in North American Division.
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Trust in the states,
we have another lawyer
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who and people want
to leave their money
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to the church through will,
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he runs the
training program for that
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and gives legal advice to that.
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That's true and traditionally
within our organization
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out in the unions and
in the local conferences
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these are the
subdivisions below our
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leadership in a whole region or,
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you know, we have the general
conference for the world.
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I'm trying to explain for some
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who may not know
the Adventist Church.
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We have a world leadership
and then we've divided
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the world up into quadrants
very much like the US military.
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But we have North
America which is Canada,
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the United States and
Bermuda interestingly enough.
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Don't forget Guam
and Wake Island now.
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That's true, that's new.
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And very often in those
not so much at the division,
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but usually at the union level
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the person who
does religious liberty
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also does trust, trust services.
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I think the
connection is that there's
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a legal element, isn't there?
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Yeah.
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And some of those
people who have done
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both of the trust
side and legal side.
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Though, I don't have
anything to do with trusts.
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We have another
lawyer who handles
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intellectual properties, so
defending the church's name,
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its trademark and
also copyright work for--
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when the church, you know,
has its own television network,
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Hope Channel and is
legal advisor to them.
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And then we have another lawyer
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who does our immigration work.
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You know, the world headquarter
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of the Adventist
Church has people
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from all over the
world working there.
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And most of those
including yourself
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and most of those individuals
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needs some type
of visa or permission
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to work in United States
while we're working there
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and also our
human resources work.
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Yeah.
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We slid on that
before but I should
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take the opportunity to mention
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what I've never
mentioned before.
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The trusts and the quest
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that's not a theoretical
issue for Liberty Magazine
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in the past particularly
people were able to designate
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some of their
property to Liberty Magazine.
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And people could
trust. In the trust.
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Right, and people can--
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And we would still welcome that.
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Yes, no, people are more
than free to do that and,
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you know, our
office while we were just
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technically legal advisors
to the General Conference
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in North American Division,
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is two entities
that take care of
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the United States
in the world church.
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We also give
advice and your calls
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and questions
from church membership
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or leadership
throughout the United States.
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And we also get calls, you know,
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one of the thing I
handles with religious liberty,
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you know, when church members
have religious liberty issues
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often times they call
the General Conference
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and those calls get
directed towards us.
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Yeah, and this is really
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where I wanted to
direct our discussion,
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because you're just not there
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if we have legal
problems with the magazine
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which you and your
department do deal with
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because we even have some legal
goings on about registering
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the name Liberty
Magazine curiously you know.
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Most people don't realize
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that book titles
are not copyrightable,
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but magazine titles
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and the whole identity
is very much a legal issue.
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Right, it can be trademarked.
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But when we're talking about
religious liberty the key thing
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for many Seventh-day
Adventist members I know is,
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will our
religious liberty department
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defend them if
they have a problem
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usually in the
workplace or something
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about their daily
life where their faith
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gets in the way
of earning a living
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and functioning
within a community.
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We do all the time
and that's what my office
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primarily handles is
representing church members
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and the organization
as well that is suffering
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from religious discrimination
in all types of contacts.
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But the workplace
context is what comes up most.
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We also do it in, you know,
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door-to-door
literature evangelist contacts,
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we do it in the prison context.
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We represent the church members
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in prison they've had problems.
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Maybe we can talk at
some length about the prisons.
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I have a real
issue on that. Yeah.
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But you're right there's a
whole wider range of context
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where religious liberty
needs defending legalism.
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What--you know,
you've been in this job
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how many years now?
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Seven years, right, seven years.
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I was gonna
guess six so I'm close.
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No, seven.
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Six is a bad number, you
know, better to be seven.
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Seven is the
perfect number, six.
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But in the time that
you've been doing this--
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what was the
most interesting case
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or the most
complex case that sort of
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was remarkable when
you look back on it.
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Well-- That sort
of surprised you.
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Yeah, I mean, there has
been a lot of interesting cases.
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I can remember a few myself.
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Yeah, you know,
they all sort of, I mean,
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I would hate to pick one out.
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You know,
probably one of the most
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interesting
one's-- there was one of
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the first cases that
which was Todd Sturgill
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versus UPS and that went
all the way to the circuit,
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we got a good decision on that.
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We have some other cases
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that are pending in
the public courts right now
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that it provides
interesting stuff.
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Our most recent
case on first amendment
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the door-to-door
literature evangelist
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work is
interesting and different.
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So there's been a
whole range of stuff,
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it's been interesting.
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Yeah and you brought that
up quicker than I thought,
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but this is a
brochure that we send
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around as part of our
awareness campaign this year.
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And it featured this
literature evangelist
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case down and was a--
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Bogalusa, Louisiana. Bogalusa.
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Which is not in
the materials actually.
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We didn't say it in the
video or in the materials,
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but it's Bogalusa, Louisiana.
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Oh, I think it's says it here.
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Does it say in--
Bogalusa, Louisiana.
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Not a name that comes
trippingly out of the tongue.
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I think its Shakespeare's,
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but a very
important case, wasn't it?
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And the issue is
vital to Christian witness
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not just to book selling program
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which is
legitimate and a long standing
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for the church but this is
a matter of Christian witness.
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It is.
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And you know, its important
that we stand up for this,
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'cause, you know,
these small communities,
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I mean, you
know, not to be smudge
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the name of Bogalusa, Louisiana,
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but it's not the most let's
say diverse and open community.
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And when someone comes
in who is from the outside
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they're not
necessarily very open to it
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and in that case is the
video and materials made clear.
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They were very hostile
in trying to enforce a law
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that was clearly
unconstitutional.
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I mean, it was so
unconstitutional, you know,
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the prosecutor who
kept trying to ignore me
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really literally would
not take my phone calls,
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eventually three days
before had to drop the case.
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Now can we go back and
we've got a few minutes.
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What was the scenario?
What are we talking about?
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So Ben Allis was working as
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the student
literature evangelist
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in the city of
Bogalusa, Louisiana.
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He was the
coordinator working for it--
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Yes, he was the
coordinator but he was also
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going door-to-door himself
and one morning as he was--
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dropping his kids off
a police officer came up
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and stopped him and arrested him
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even before he'd gone
door-to-door that day.
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I mean, she really didn't
have a basis to arrest him.
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She hadn't seen him
doing anything illegal
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even under their own ordinance.
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She just
assumed he was going to,
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arrested him, handcuffed him
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and put him back in the
squad car, took him to jail.
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And it was very, you
know, unprofessional about it.
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It was very
hostile about it, you know,
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they humiliated
him, and you know,
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and belittled
him as cops have been
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known to do from time to time.
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And what was the logic
there because you would think
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this would be a matter--
they would be a fine for it
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wasn't it--the
charge something to do
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was no license to--
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Yeah, no, no all
these ordinances, I mean,
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a fine is what normally
happens, I mean many times--
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You know, there will be
a citation and a summons.
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That's normally how it's done,
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but this is part of
her being very hostile
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was she simply, you know,
was gonna haul him off to jail,
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and it's true that
under this ordinance,
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you know, you
could get jail time.
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Normally these ordinance
enforcement at least for
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most--is quite
frankly a revenue generator.
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But this one for whatever reason
00:10:31.21\00:10:33.40
she decided to take personally--
00:10:33.43\00:10:35.76
But I still, you
know, I'm a legal Laban.
00:10:35.79\00:10:37.75
Yes.
00:10:37.78\00:10:39.15
Capital L, but
it would seem to me
00:10:39.18\00:10:42.55
the jail time wouldn't that be
00:10:42.58\00:10:44.32
administered by
the judge, not, I mean,
00:10:44.35\00:10:46.34
how could a policemen determine
00:10:46.37\00:10:48.62
right up front that
this is you to be arrested
00:10:48.65\00:10:51.15
and put in jail for something
that's not misdemeanor, is it?
00:10:51.18\00:10:55.41
Yeah, it was-- It's not a--
00:10:55.44\00:10:56.81
The felony.
00:10:56.84\00:10:58.21
It's not a felony,
it's a misdemeanor.
00:10:58.24\00:10:59.61
Well, you can be thrown
in a jail for misdemeanors.
00:10:59.64\00:11:01.54
Usually as a
consequence of not dealing
00:11:01.57\00:11:03.54
with the money penalty, right?
00:11:03.57\00:11:06.03
The way the law works is
she had I mean, you know,
00:11:06.06\00:11:09.22
she had the right to arrest him.
00:11:09.25\00:11:10.67
I mean, she didn't because
00:11:10.70\00:11:12.07
it was unconstitutional
about the ordinance
00:11:12.10\00:11:13.67
and their
enforcement application to it.
00:11:13.70\00:11:15.46
But no, I mean, it was
a serious enough offence
00:11:15.49\00:11:18.96
that pretrial detention is
the technical legal term for it
00:11:18.99\00:11:22.57
that was probably-- now
he bailed out immediately
00:11:22.60\00:11:25.32
and he did not spend, I mean,
his time in jail was hours,
00:11:25.35\00:11:28.26
I mean, let's not, you
know, I don't, you sound like,
00:11:28.29\00:11:30.36
you know, spent the night
in the clinic so to speak.
00:11:30.39\00:11:32.94
But still he went out to jail.
00:11:32.97\00:11:34.34
He was held in a
cell and, you know,
00:11:34.37\00:11:36.83
and then if they hadn't
bailed him out that night,
00:11:36.86\00:11:38.66
he would have been, he
would have stayed there.
00:11:38.69\00:11:41.48
Yeah, that's incredible
for not just a minor thing
00:11:41.51\00:11:45.15
but a thing so
patently connected with church,
00:11:45.18\00:11:48.96
regular church activities and
witness an altruistic activity.
00:11:48.99\00:11:53.18
Right. And there
was no accusation.
00:11:53.21\00:11:55.21
He was trying to
defraud anyone or you know--
00:11:55.24\00:11:58.11
So what did she say?
00:11:58.14\00:11:59.51
What was the
initial come on it apart
00:11:59.54\00:12:00.91
from a hostile approach,
but what was so offensive?
00:12:00.94\00:12:05.21
Well, I think one of the
things that she was upset
00:12:05.24\00:12:07.35
about was that she
felt that they have been
00:12:07.38\00:12:10.53
told even though-- no one
had ever talked to that man.
00:12:10.56\00:12:12.75
She felt that these
individuals have been
00:12:12.78\00:12:14.34
told not to come back in town.
00:12:14.37\00:12:16.78
And there may have
been some conversations
00:12:16.81\00:12:18.37
with other people,
but it wasn't with Ben.
00:12:18.40\00:12:20.66
You know, he didn't have
any knowledge of the prior of
00:12:20.69\00:12:23.32
what that have
been worked out lately.
00:12:23.35\00:12:24.72
But they had made a preliminary
contact with him didn't they?
00:12:24.75\00:12:27.74
As they would
normally do and you'd expect.
00:12:27.77\00:12:30.13
And they had send an email
to the chief of police that,
00:12:30.16\00:12:32.20
you know, his
supervisor and so forth
00:12:32.23\00:12:33.91
that the issue is
taken care of, but, you know,
00:12:33.94\00:12:36.58
the law enforcement
was just not very happy
00:12:36.61\00:12:39.78
to see them and you
know made that norm.
00:12:39.81\00:12:43.21
Interesting.
00:12:43.24\00:12:44.61
We'll be back after the break
00:12:44.64\00:12:46.01
to maybe discuss
a little bit more
00:12:46.04\00:12:48.36
the ramifications of this
type of the legal challenge
00:12:48.39\00:12:51.48
to what most people take
for granted as their right
00:12:51.51\00:12:54.40
and indeed as a Christian
an obligation to share.
00:12:54.43\00:12:56.59
We'll be right back.
00:12:56.62\00:12:57.99