Welcome back. Continuing
the discussion with guest
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Dr. Bert Beach. We were talking
about countries of interest,
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dangerous opportunity. Things
are very difficult in many
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countries. Have been in
the past. Some of those have
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improved and others that
were not so much a problem have
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gotten worse. It's a dynamic
situation, isn't it? And at any
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given time there are many
problem areas. Did you read the
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Pugh Form Report recently?
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Pointing out that Christianity
was the most persecuted religion
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in the world. As I
remember they said that 70%
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of the world's population lives
under a situation where there
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are severe restrictions on
religious freedom. Not all of
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those people recognize
it because if you live in a
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majority country where any
minority is openly persecuted
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you feel fine. But two-thirds
of the world are really in bad
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situations on religious liberty.
But can you think of another
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country that's worrying to you?
Well before we take that tack
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because I want to talk in
the little brief time that's
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slipping away by the moment
I want to talk a bit about the
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Arab spring and what that
represents in a larger thing.
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But we're talking about personal
problems that people may have.
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You know the country is
large but the situations involve
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individuals don't they?
Very often they are in the work
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place. Have you got any advice
that you would give someone
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that may see that there's
a possibility of problems on
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Sabbath accommodation or respect
for their religion either here
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where there's legal
support or elsewhere.
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I'll give you just one
little example, one experience.
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Years ago I was in Italy and one
of the students at our school
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was doing his military service.
He had been a student. He called
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me up on the telephone and said
that next Saturday they have
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practice working there in
the regiment where I'm doing my
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service and they won't give
me the Sabbath off which they've
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always done in the past. So can
you intervene and do something
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for me. So I called Dr.
Rossi who was religious liberty
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director in Rome at the time of
the Italian Union. I went over
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there to the regiment and asked
to see the colonel in charge.
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So the colonel was there and
the captain of the company was
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there. We talked to them and
I and Rossi made the appeal for
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the conscience of an individual
who wanted to not have to go
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to serve in a military activity
on the Sabbath. He wanted to be
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free to go to his church and so
forth. The colonel at a certain
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point said you know we can't
give him the Sabbath off because
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next Saturday we're having
practice with grenades and it's
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a very important thing. I mean
if you don't do it right you'll
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blow yourself up or blow up the
other people. So he has to be
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there for that and so forth.
We can't do anything about it.
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Then the captain said this. I
said to myself, You know, Lord,
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do something because this is
not going the right way. I'm not
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succeeding here. And the captain
said, You know colonel it's too
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bad that we can't do something
for this soldier because he's
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the best soldier in my company.
And the captain was like when
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the wind changes on top of
the house, just out of the blue.
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I didn't say anything. Didn't do
anything. The colonel said, Well
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of course. In Italy we respect
human conscience. You know we
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give privileges for this student
Why did he do that. Because he
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was the best student. So I
always tell people if you have a
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job and you're working, if you
are a good employee it will be
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much easier to get Sabbath
privileges. If you're a student
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in school and you have problems
and you're the last in the class
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or failing and then you say I
want to be free on Sabbath the
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teachers in the school will not
be very encouraging maybe where
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they have school on Saturday.
So be good in your work, have
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a good character and be faithful
and reliable because you're
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as asset to them and so they
will want to have you and not
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just say well you know I want
to be a conscientious objector.
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You also want to be
a conscientious worker.
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Good point. I must remember
that; not just a conscientious
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objector but a
conscientious worker. Very good.
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We only have a few minutes left
but enough, I think, to delve
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into it. The Arab spring.
I remember when it developed,
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what is it, a year or nearly
two years ago probably. It began
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really with persecution against
Christians in Alexandria, Egypt.
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Everyone sort of dates it from
this young man in Tunisia who
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burned himself to death.
That literally set it on fire.
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But the early warning signs
of agitation were a sharp uptick
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in attacks on Christians
in Alexandria and Cairo as I
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remember. There's no
doubt that in Tunisia
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and in Egypt, in Libya you
had dictators; you had people of
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almost absolute power running
the country and people wanted
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a little bit more democracy.
And of course the U.S. supports
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democracy, so we supported these
movements and maybe we should
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have investigated a little
bit more whether these movements
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are just against that type
of dictatorship and wanting to
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institute through democratic
efforts another type of
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institution and direction
and government which will not be
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democratic finally. It
will be an Islamic state.
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Well in our own way we've
developed a western ideology
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that is fluid as the communist
one. You remember the communists
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operating on the dialectal
materialism from Marx and Ingles
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They believed that society
had to develop through feudalism
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and all the rest, then
capitalism and naturally
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capitalism would be replaced
by communism. We tend to believe
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that if you pull a false system
democracy will emerge. I think
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it's just as false. It doesn't
automatically emerge when the
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people rise up.
Yeah, you have all the
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independent countries in Africa,
well not say all; I may be
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exaggerating a little bit.
But the great majority of these
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independent countries have
not formed really what you would
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call a mature democracy. It has
democratic aspects a little bit
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but elections
are still a little...
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Well the society is still
structured along tribal and
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ethnic loyalties and that is
a poor match. But you mentioned
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the dictators. We did support
certain dictators, Mubarak for
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example and I remember a lot of
the history there and he didn't
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just sort of pop
up out of nowhere.
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Well he was a
general in the army.
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Right and he followed on from
Sadat who tilted very favorably
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to the west, who was
assassinated by the Muslim
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league or the
Muslim brotherhood rather.
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An acquaintance of mine
was assassinated with him.
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Really? No it's fashionable now
to put down sort of put down, or
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it has been for the last few
months, to put down Mubarak's
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comments about the Muslim
brotherhood as paranoia. To me
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it was based on solid fact. His
associate Anwar Sadat was killed
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before his eyes by a radical
violent faction of the Muslim
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brotherhood. The western world
now is fighting against Al Qaeda
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the cofounder of which, Dr.
Imam Al Zar Waheri, came out of
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the Muslim brotherhood. I think
Mubarak had it straight. His
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methods were autocratic
and he, without support, became
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increasingly so. But I think
it's been naive, hasn't it, to
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presume that out of
this nurturing of the Muslim
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brotherhood that was repressed
to release it that it will turn
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into a benign democracy. I'm
sorry to hold forth. I want to
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let you answer. I
think you're right. I think
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we have to be careful. You can
overthrow a regime, which was
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not good, and get another regime
which may not be much better or
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may even be worse. So I'm
not that optimistic right now.
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I wish I could be, I'd like
to be. I'd like to see the new
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president in Egypt be democratic
and for religious liberty and
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succeed. I'd be happy if he did.
But you know there are a lot of
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pressures on these men and from
their background and from others
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as so forth. Well
the best I can say for
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Mussi is you now he was
an engineering student in the
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United States and let's hope
he saw good things here; not
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prejudice and not
models that he would regret.
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Well you see if somebody comes
to America and visits America
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and if you want to concentrate
on immoral things and watch,
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there are a lot of immoral
things going on in America.
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And a person can say, well our
women here are much more covered
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they're much more protected,
they behave better and whatever
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you want to call that system.
In America people don't dress
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properly, they are immoral, they
live together, they don't get
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married and all that. True
for a straight-laced Muslim
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background exchange student it
could be a little off-putting.
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You can look at America and be
very critical if you want to and
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yet there are great things
in America, wonderful things.
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But we do hope and we're running
out of time and I hope that one
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good element of these bad
regimes in Syria and in Egypt
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comes to pass, because by my
observation, as in Iraq, those
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regimes that try to distance
themselves from favoring any one
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religion and consequently gave
relatively equal treatment to
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Christians, Muslims and all
others and so I think that it
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was not by chance that in the
rebellions almost the first act
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against the government was to
attack the religious minority.
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So we can only hope as
they reformulate that they
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reestablish this respect for all
religions. Of course Islam is
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going to get automatic respect.
But Christians need to be
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reinstated in that process.
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And I think we should pray for
the Christian churches in the
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Middle East because they
are about ready to go out of
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existence. They are migrating.
Christians are leaving.
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You've been to the Middle East
many times so have you got a
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final word on what
you see in that area?
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Well I'm hoping for the best
and preparing for the worst.
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We never know what the situation
is. I think we should be careful
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I hope that the situation will
improve, that we'll get some
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democracy going and some
religious liberty in that part
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of the world. But God has
to intervene for it to happen.
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Sometimes imprisonment works
very much to the glory of God.
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I'm put to mind of Paul and
Silas in Philippi. Because of
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their good actions and
delivering a young girl of a
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spirit that was troubling her
and upsetting the public good
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it was said, they were put in
jail. And there in the middle of
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the night an earthquake released
them. It's not really clear
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whether the earthquake was God's
providence or just a natural
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occurrence but they could
have run free at that point. But
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instead they and the other
prisoners stayed put. The jailer
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came along ready to kill himself
in anticipation of being killed
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for losing his prisoners and
Paul says, Don't harm yourself,
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we're all here. The result of
that wonderful witness in that
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moment of crisis the jailer, his
family and many others in that
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city were converted. Just
so today. While persecution is
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rampant and increasing and
we discussed even this Adventist
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leader in Togo. Many times such
bad experiences lead to good
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and powerful witness for
the truth. That happens today as
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much today as it did years ago.
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For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:38.91\00:12:43.04