Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bert Beach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000203B
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00:06 Welcome back to "Liberty Insider"
00:08 as we continue our discussion. 00:10 And my name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:14 and with guest Bert Beach, Dr. Beach, 00:18 of great experience in religious liberty 00:20 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 00:21 around the world over many years. 00:23 We're talking about today, are we better or worse off 00:27 on religious liberty and where are we going? 00:31 Is this constantly improving or a hazardous journey? 00:36 Well, I think religious liberty is still pretty well accepted 00:41 by our government leaders, by other churches. 00:45 The Catholic Church certainly has become 00:47 more religious liberty oriented 00:49 than it used to be a few decades ago. 00:53 But I do think that there are certain restrictions 00:57 that the government can use nowadays to control society, 01:02 to diminish the danger of terrorism 01:07 and all that type of thing, that could 01:10 need to infringement on religious liberty. 01:13 Well, civil liberties, again, it gives the appearance 01:16 of business as usual but the construct 01:18 of civil liberties has change radically. 01:22 People are not easily granted the right to do-- 01:25 even to think and to act and was-- 01:29 you know, as they've moved. 01:32 With terrorism where someone 01:34 who kill themselves in a terrorist act, 01:36 now, it's the potential for the act that is culpable. 01:40 And so religion as viewpoint 01:43 where you look at another universe-- 01:46 you're looking to higher power, 01:48 that can easily be posited as dangerous to the public good. 01:53 Now, there is a problem of free speech. 01:56 To what extend is some free speech 02:00 that people are using nowadays 02:02 consider to be like calling fire in a room-- 02:06 That's always been the ultimate-- 02:08 an ultimate argument against totally unrestrained 02:11 religious liberty and religious speech. 02:14 But I use this term "public good" 02:16 and I've picked up both-- 02:18 particularly from Roman Catholic writings 02:21 and some European states are picking it up 02:23 and a little bit within the U.S. 02:25 This argument that we have civil liberties, 02:28 we have religious freedom, grant those, 02:31 but their certain situation 02:33 where the public good some things need to be restricted. 02:37 Well that was also a teaching to some extent 02:41 of the Roman Catholic Church-- 02:42 Well, they've enunciated it recently-- 02:43 In the past, in the past. Now, they bring it out-- 02:45 Well, I mean it was a way of explaining 02:50 lack of religious liberty in way 02:53 because for the public good we need to have that. 02:55 And of course I think Islam 02:57 has a tendency of adapting something like that, too. 03:00 In the sense of, well, Islam needs to be protected 03:04 and that's the public good, that's the majority. 03:06 And so you people that have a different religion, 03:08 we need to kind of make sure you don't disturb the status quo. 03:15 Well, there is--there is some problem with Islam, 03:19 you know they have every right to believe 03:22 what they do or any group or not to believe. 03:25 But you just looked it structurally I think the-- 03:29 the problems we see with Islam are not misunderstanding 03:32 of their faith or an inability to agree with us. 03:36 They are structural. They come from the Quran. 03:38 The Quran is one Muslim leader-- I think was meeting you were in. 03:42 You remember in this when they were wanting to have 03:47 an ICPA Meeting in the United Arab Emirates. 03:51 One of the Minister of Health from Kuwait 03:53 I think he was laughed and he said, 03:54 "There's no such thing the separation 03:56 of church and state in our country." 03:58 And that comes from the Quran. 04:00 The Quran mandates the matters of faith 04:03 are not just to be in the church they run everything. 04:06 The ruler has to be under the faith program, 04:09 the people, the governance, everything. 04:11 The ruler is also head of religion. 04:14 So for Islamic authorities to be party 04:17 to separation of church and state 04:19 they will open themselves to be called heretics. 04:22 So it isn't gonna happen. 04:24 Where in the west I think as we look at the Bible 04:27 there is a very good argument to be gained 04:29 from the Bible isn't there, 04:30 on separation of church and state? 04:32 So that can even flow as people deal with that. 04:38 Oh, that's true. 04:39 But... it is very difficult situation 04:44 when you have majority religion and it feels itself threatened 04:50 by minority religions that are perhaps better educated, 04:55 have may be seemingly more income, more money, 04:59 and are able to be more affluent in this so on effecting society 05:03 and they feel-- well, that's danger 05:05 to their equilibrium and their nation. 05:08 You find that also may be even in India, among Hindus, 05:11 who have the same viewpoint 05:13 that Christians are having money, 05:17 they have influence, and they do things 05:20 that go counter to the Hindu religious-- 05:22 It is destroying the social structure. 05:23 And people come to Christianity simply to get 05:25 more income and feel better. 05:26 Or to escape the cast system. And cast system. 05:28 Yeah, yeah. 05:30 No, and then these are viable reasons for people to feel 05:34 the threat but the end result is persecution, isn't it? 05:36 Right. 05:38 But don't you agree or do you see this-- 05:40 Or else, if not persecution at least discrimination. 05:43 Yes, but do you, do you see the same dark clouds 05:46 on the horizon that I do with the if not the diminishing 05:50 then the question mark over any number of civil liberties? 05:55 That this is sort of setting the stage with another emergency 05:59 or with the an expedience of state religion-- 06:03 Let's put it this way. That could be lowered on-- 06:05 I don't think the government-- I don't think 06:08 that the government is setting the stage-- 06:10 No I don't believe there is a conscious plan-- 06:12 Exactly. I think, yes. 06:15 When the government has more power 06:17 and more able to control things, 06:20 if you get a evil government it can go into bad direction. 06:25 Right and so the tools are being granted to the past-- 06:28 The tools are certainly more powerful 06:31 at disposal of the government today 06:33 than what the government had in the days of Edgar Hoover. 06:36 Yes, yeah. Who was bad intent? 06:41 I mean, he was the ultimate busy buddy. 06:43 There was a-- an interesting comment 06:46 that I read-- you know, I love history 06:48 and I read recently in the few minutes 06:52 after the assassination President Kennedy, 06:55 that Johnson got call from Edgar Hoover and he says, 06:59 we have list of I think it was 25, 35,000 names 07:04 of enemy of the state. 07:06 And he says, "Do you want me to round them up 07:08 and put them all in prison, Mr. President?" And Johnson-- 07:12 Is that true story? 07:14 Johnson said, "No, I don't think so, not now." 07:20 Well, you know, so nothing happen 07:22 but one very powerful man had the ability 07:25 to suddenly lower the boom on a huge number of people. 07:28 Well, but today the tools are much 07:31 more powerful that was nothing-- 07:32 Oh, that was Dark Ages as far as national security was concerned. 07:35 I mean now with internet and-- 07:38 Absolutely and predators. 07:40 You know just in this last 12 months 07:43 predator drones have been put into service across the U.S. 07:47 Big brother is watching to quote George Orwell in 1984. 07:51 But we do-- I do have to admit easily 07:53 and I think you agree with me, 07:55 that the daily practice of religious liberty 07:57 in the United States is largely untroubled. 08:01 Yeah, I think it's pretty good. Yes. 08:03 I can't complain. 08:05 I don't know of any other country in the world 08:08 that is better for religious liberty than the U.S. 08:10 There are other countries are very good. 08:12 I lived in England for 20 years and I didn't feel persecuted 08:16 but I did feel that to some extent 08:18 I was a second class citizen. 08:22 Well, you I am positive. 08:24 'Cause you live in Washington where I live in that area now. 08:27 And I am positive. 08:29 There's plenty of little country towns in the U.S. 08:32 that is minority Protestant group 08:35 not well known or trusted by many others. 08:38 You could go their and you would find 08:40 that life could be quite difficult for you. 08:43 Your children would be-- Discriminated. 08:46 Insulted at school, you might find 08:48 you don't get good service 08:51 and it depends on the group, it varies. 08:52 But I've traveled to places and I know 08:54 there is a very strong support and prejudice against others 08:59 than that dominant religious viewpoint in a closed community. 09:03 Well that's, that's natural-- Anywhere you have-- 09:06 It's naturally occurring but it's not ideal. 09:07 a community that's been that way for decades maybe even centuries 09:12 and they've always been in control, 09:15 they always did it their way, 09:17 and then comes somebody else who's different, 09:20 that's always difficult, yes. 09:22 But in way what I am saying is what you saw in Europe 09:26 when you're younger still exists in some places here. 09:29 So the religious liberty battle is not one. 09:32 Well, I must say I was never-- 09:34 I didn't feel mistreated by my classmates. 09:38 They sometimes made a joke 09:39 because I didn't come to school on Saturday-- 09:41 Now you were mistreat but the-- 09:43 the state was read to mistreat you-- 09:45 Well the state was-- that was the state, I mean. 09:49 But I've been in society-- of course they probably thought 09:53 but this Adventist are kind of queer, 09:55 a little bit special, you know, why not they just do 09:58 the way we do in the reformed church. 10:00 But they didn't like big thing. 10:02 I had a sense of humor. 10:04 And I think if you have sense of humor and you're able to-- 10:08 That's true. You can-- 10:09 because some people are very touchy 10:12 and they then they withdraw and then, 10:16 and then they get more laughed at by their classmates. 10:20 Like in Hagerstown where I live we try to register our son 10:24 in a certain Christian school, we though hardly of it. 10:28 The principal told us "Oh, no we don't accept 10:30 Adventist, you're not Christians." 10:33 I could tell you a little story that illustrates this situation. 10:36 I was principal of our school in the Ivory Coast 10:39 for a few months and I wanted to get my daughter 10:44 into one of the schools now run by another mission 10:48 nearby to go to school there-- and in English. 10:52 And they accepted there to take her 10:55 but then they receive word from the headquarters 10:57 that they could not take my daughter there into the school 11:00 because she was a Seventh-day Adventist. 11:03 And they didn't want a Seventh- day Adventist in that school. 11:05 I found that very bad Christian inter-church relations. 11:11 The standard political challenge in US presidential elections 11:15 from the underdog has been the question, 11:19 "Are you better off than you were four years earlier?" 11:23 Obviously that doesn't always work 11:25 as the last election has shown. 11:28 But you could ask that same question on religious liberty. 11:30 Are we better off now than we were four centuries ago, 11:34 than we were before the reaffirmation, 11:37 than we were after the reaffirmation? 11:39 These are complex questions or at least with complex answers. 11:44 I think in some ways it's like 11:46 "A Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens 11:48 referring to the time for the French revolution. 11:50 And he said, it was the best of times 11:52 and it was the worst of times. 11:55 Structural changes signal the trouble 11:58 that's probably not far ahead. 12:00 The world is infirmed. 12:02 Challenges to some of the very lows that I've called 12:05 religious freedom even in the United States 12:07 are severe and signal trouble is ahead. 12:10 But for now God's Spirit still moves upon men's hearts. 12:14 There is still a time of great opportunity 12:18 and I believe those that value religious liberty are being 12:22 given a chance to proclaim their faith as never before. 12:26 This is a wonderful privilege. 12:30 For "Liberty Insider" this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17