Welcome back to
"Liberty Insider"
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as we continue our discussion.
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And my name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and with guest
Bert Beach, Dr. Beach,
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of great experience
in religious liberty
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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around the
world over many years.
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We're talking about today,
are we better or worse off
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on religious liberty
and where are we going?
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Is this constantly improving
or a hazardous journey?
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Well, I think religious liberty
is still pretty well accepted
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by our government
leaders, by other churches.
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The Catholic Church
certainly has become
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more religious liberty oriented
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than it used to
be a few decades ago.
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But I do think that
there are certain restrictions
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that the government can use
nowadays to control society,
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to diminish the
danger of terrorism
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and all that type
of thing, that could
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need to infringement
on religious liberty.
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Well, civil liberties,
again, it gives the appearance
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of business as
usual but the construct
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of civil liberties
has change radically.
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People are not easily
granted the right to do--
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even to think
and to act and was--
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you know, as they've moved.
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With terrorism where someone
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who kill
themselves in a terrorist act,
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now, it's the potential
for the act that is culpable.
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And so religion as viewpoint
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where you look at
another universe--
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you're looking to higher power,
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that can easily be posited
as dangerous to the public good.
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Now, there is a
problem of free speech.
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To what extend
is some free speech
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that people are using nowadays
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consider to be like
calling fire in a room--
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That's always
been the ultimate--
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an ultimate argument
against totally unrestrained
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religious liberty
and religious speech.
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But I use this
term "public good"
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and I've picked up both--
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particularly from
Roman Catholic writings
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and some European
states are picking it up
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and a little bit within the U.S.
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This argument that
we have civil liberties,
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we have religious
freedom, grant those,
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but their certain situation
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where the public good some
things need to be restricted.
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Well that was also a
teaching to some extent
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of the Roman Catholic Church--
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Well, they've
enunciated it recently--
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In the past, in the
past. Now, they bring it out--
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Well, I mean it
was a way of explaining
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lack of religious liberty in way
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because for the public
good we need to have that.
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And of course I think Islam
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has a tendency of adapting
something like that, too.
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In the sense of, well,
Islam needs to be protected
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and that's the public
good, that's the majority.
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And so you people that
have a different religion,
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we need to kind of make sure you
don't disturb the status quo.
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Well, there is--there
is some problem with Islam,
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you know they have
every right to believe
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what they do or any
group or not to believe.
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But you just looked it
structurally I think the--
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the problems we see with
Islam are not misunderstanding
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of their faith or an
inability to agree with us.
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They are structural.
They come from the Quran.
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The Quran is one Muslim leader--
I think was meeting you were in.
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You remember in this
when they were wanting to have
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an ICPA Meeting in
the United Arab Emirates.
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One of the Minister
of Health from Kuwait
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I think he was
laughed and he said,
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"There's no such
thing the separation
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of church and
state in our country."
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And that comes from the Quran.
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The Quran mandates
the matters of faith
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are not just to be in the
church they run everything.
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The ruler has to be
under the faith program,
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the people, the
governance, everything.
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The ruler is
also head of religion.
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So for Islamic
authorities to be party
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to separation
of church and state
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they will open themselves
to be called heretics.
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So it isn't gonna happen.
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Where in the west I
think as we look at the Bible
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there is a very good
argument to be gained
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from the Bible isn't there,
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on separation of
church and state?
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So that can even flow
as people deal with that.
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Oh, that's true.
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But... it is very
difficult situation
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when you have majority religion
and it feels itself threatened
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by minority religions that
are perhaps better educated,
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have may be seemingly
more income, more money,
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and are able to be more affluent
in this so on effecting society
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and they feel--
well, that's danger
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to their
equilibrium and their nation.
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You find that also may be
even in India, among Hindus,
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who have the same viewpoint
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that Christians
are having money,
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they have
influence, and they do things
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that go counter to
the Hindu religious--
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It is destroying
the social structure.
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And people come to
Christianity simply to get
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more income and feel better.
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Or to escape the cast
system. And cast system.
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Yeah, yeah.
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No, and then these are viable
reasons for people to feel
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the threat but the end
result is persecution, isn't it?
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Right.
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But don't you agree
or do you see this--
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Or else, if not persecution
at least discrimination.
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Yes, but do you, do you
see the same dark clouds
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on the horizon that I do
with the if not the diminishing
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then the question mark over
any number of civil liberties?
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That this is sort of setting
the stage with another emergency
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or with the an
expedience of state religion--
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Let's put it this way.
That could be lowered on--
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I don't think the
government-- I don't think
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that the government
is setting the stage--
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No I don't believe
there is a conscious plan--
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Exactly. I think, yes.
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When the
government has more power
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and more able to control things,
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if you get a evil government
it can go into bad direction.
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Right and so the tools are
being granted to the past--
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The tools are
certainly more powerful
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at disposal of
the government today
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than what the government
had in the days of Edgar Hoover.
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Yes, yeah. Who was bad intent?
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I mean, he was the
ultimate busy buddy.
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There was a-- an
interesting comment
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that I read-- you
know, I love history
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and I read
recently in the few minutes
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after the
assassination President Kennedy,
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that Johnson got call
from Edgar Hoover and he says,
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we have list of I
think it was 25, 35,000 names
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of enemy of the state.
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And he says, "Do you
want me to round them up
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and put them all in prison,
Mr. President?" And Johnson--
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Is that true story?
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Johnson said, "No, I
don't think so, not now."
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Well, you know,
so nothing happen
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but one very
powerful man had the ability
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to suddenly lower the boom
on a huge number of people.
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Well, but today
the tools are much
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more powerful that was nothing--
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Oh, that was Dark Ages as far as
national security was concerned.
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I mean now with internet and--
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Absolutely and predators.
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You know just in
this last 12 months
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predator drones have been
put into service across the U.S.
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Big brother is watching to
quote George Orwell in 1984.
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But we do-- I do
have to admit easily
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and I think you agree with me,
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that the daily
practice of religious liberty
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in the United States
is largely untroubled.
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Yeah, I think
it's pretty good. Yes.
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I can't complain.
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I don't know of any
other country in the world
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that is better for
religious liberty than the U.S.
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There are other
countries are very good.
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I lived in England for 20 years
and I didn't feel persecuted
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but I did feel
that to some extent
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I was a second class citizen.
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Well, you I am positive.
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'Cause you live in Washington
where I live in that area now.
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And I am positive.
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There's plenty of little
country towns in the U.S.
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that is
minority Protestant group
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not well known or
trusted by many others.
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You could go
their and you would find
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that life could be
quite difficult for you.
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Your children
would be-- Discriminated.
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Insulted at
school, you might find
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you don't get good service
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and it depends on
the group, it varies.
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But I've traveled
to places and I know
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there is a very strong support
and prejudice against others
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than that dominant religious
viewpoint in a closed community.
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Well that's, that's
natural-- Anywhere you have--
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It's naturally
occurring but it's not ideal.
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a community that's been that way
for decades maybe even centuries
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and they've
always been in control,
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they always did it their way,
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and then comes
somebody else who's different,
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that's always difficult, yes.
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But in way what I am
saying is what you saw in Europe
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when you're younger still
exists in some places here.
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So the religious
liberty battle is not one.
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Well, I must say I was never--
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I didn't feel
mistreated by my classmates.
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They sometimes made a joke
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because I didn't come
to school on Saturday--
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Now you were mistreat but the--
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the state was
read to mistreat you--
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Well the state was--
that was the state, I mean.
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But I've been in society--
of course they probably thought
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but this
Adventist are kind of queer,
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a little bit special, you
know, why not they just do
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the way we do in
the reformed church.
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But they didn't like big thing.
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I had a sense of humor.
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And I think if you have sense
of humor and you're able to--
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That's true. You can--
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because some
people are very touchy
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and they then
they withdraw and then,
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and then they get more
laughed at by their classmates.
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Like in Hagerstown where I
live we try to register our son
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in a certain Christian
school, we though hardly of it.
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The principal told us
"Oh, no we don't accept
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Adventist,
you're not Christians."
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I could tell you a little story
that illustrates this situation.
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I was principal of our
school in the Ivory Coast
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for a few months and I
wanted to get my daughter
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into one of the schools
now run by another mission
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nearby to go to school
there-- and in English.
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And they
accepted there to take her
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but then they receive
word from the headquarters
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that they could not take my
daughter there into the school
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because she was a
Seventh-day Adventist.
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And they didn't want a Seventh-
day Adventist in that school.
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I found that very bad Christian
inter-church relations.
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The standard political challenge
in US presidential elections
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from the underdog
has been the question,
00:11:15.47\00:11:19.61
"Are you better off than
you were four years earlier?"
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Obviously that
doesn't always work
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as the last election has shown.
00:11:25.16\00:11:28.10
But you could ask that same
question on religious liberty.
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Are we better off now than
we were four centuries ago,
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than we were
before the reaffirmation,
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than we were
after the reaffirmation?
00:11:37.18\00:11:39.87
These are complex questions or
at least with complex answers.
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I think in some ways it's like
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"A Tale of Two
Cities" by Charles Dickens
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referring to the time
for the French revolution.
00:11:48.75\00:11:50.91
And he said, it
was the best of times
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and it was the worst of times.
00:11:52.97\00:11:55.65
Structural
changes signal the trouble
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that's probably not far ahead.
00:11:58.48\00:12:00.67
The world is infirmed.
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Challenges to some of the
very lows that I've called
00:12:02.34\00:12:05.36
religious freedom
even in the United States
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are severe and
signal trouble is ahead.
00:12:07.86\00:12:10.59
But for now God's Spirit
still moves upon men's hearts.
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There is still a
time of great opportunity
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and I believe those that value
religious liberty are being
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given a chance to proclaim
their faith as never before.
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This is a wonderful privilege.
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For "Liberty Insider"
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:30.19\00:12:33.64