Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
00:00:23.19\00:00:25.24
This is a program that
brings you news, views,
00:00:25.27\00:00:27.69
and up to date discussion
on religious liberty events
00:00:27.72\00:00:31.07
in the United States
and around the world.
00:00:31.10\00:00:33.30
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
00:00:33.33\00:00:37.04
and my guest on the program,
00:00:37.07\00:00:38.64
welcome, is Dr. Bert Beach,
00:00:38.67\00:00:41.98
longtime
religious liberty leader
00:00:42.01\00:00:43.61
for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:00:43.64\00:00:45.01
and for many years heading up
00:00:45.04\00:00:46.52
the work of the General
Conference Headquarters.
00:00:46.55\00:00:50.79
Thinking back on your
experience and thinking to today
00:00:50.82\00:00:54.03
which the newspaper
headlines are always shrieking
00:00:54.06\00:00:57.08
religious
liberty concerns at us.
00:00:57.11\00:00:58.92
Are we better off
today for religious liberty
00:00:58.95\00:01:02.26
than we once
were or are things--
00:01:02.29\00:01:04.37
have things gotten much worse?
00:01:04.40\00:01:07.13
Wow. It's a loaded
question obviously--
00:01:07.16\00:01:11.50
To looking toward
the future of course,
00:01:11.53\00:01:13.47
it's a very difficult
situation. We don't know--
00:01:13.50\00:01:16.14
Past and present not, well--
00:01:16.17\00:01:17.54
We're going to develop.
00:01:17.57\00:01:18.94
I always tell
people somewhat humorously
00:01:18.97\00:01:22.09
that it is dangerous to prophesy
especially about the future.
00:01:22.12\00:01:27.42
Because
sometimes we make mistakes
00:01:27.45\00:01:29.54
when we talk about the thing.
00:01:29.57\00:01:31.40
Looking back, I
think in many ways
00:01:31.43\00:01:34.88
the religious
liberty situation is better,
00:01:34.91\00:01:38.07
at least on paper
certainly than it was.
00:01:38.10\00:01:42.46
When I was a
child in Switzerland,
00:01:42.49\00:01:45.31
which is a country
of religious liberty,
00:01:45.34\00:01:47.59
you might say in a way, in
general terms civil liberty.
00:01:47.62\00:01:51.99
I had to go to a
Presbyterian School in Bern,
00:01:52.02\00:01:56.31
which was no
longer Presbyterian really
00:01:56.34\00:01:59.03
but it had been
founded by Presbyterians
00:01:59.06\00:02:01.42
and had some
Presbyterian connection
00:02:01.45\00:02:03.92
like some of the universities
and colleges in America
00:02:03.95\00:02:06.60
where it's very loose,
00:02:06.63\00:02:08.09
it has some connection
with the reform church
00:02:08.12\00:02:10.75
and switch on which
is a Presbyterian Church
00:02:10.78\00:02:14.04
founded by Zwingli
and John Calvin and so on.
00:02:14.07\00:02:19.70
When I was there in school,
00:02:19.73\00:02:21.10
I had to go to that school
00:02:21.13\00:02:22.50
because if I went
to the state school,
00:02:22.53\00:02:24.65
I was forced to be
in school on Sabbath.
00:02:24.68\00:02:27.08
That's 6 day school days
and those days in Switzerland.
00:02:27.11\00:02:31.62
And Seventh-day
Adventists were forced to go
00:02:31.65\00:02:34.00
and send their
children to school on Sabbath.
00:02:34.03\00:02:36.10
They were fined, sometimes
they even went to prison
00:02:36.13\00:02:39.45
if they didn't send their
children to school on Sabbath.
00:02:39.48\00:02:41.59
But in the canton of Bern
00:02:41.62\00:02:43.72
because one is
kind of like the US.
00:02:43.75\00:02:46.24
Every state runs its
own educational system
00:02:46.27\00:02:49.21
and the canton of Bern,
they allowed private schools
00:02:49.24\00:02:53.68
to run their own
system, if they wanted to have--
00:02:53.71\00:02:56.87
let a person off on
Saturday, they could do that.
00:02:56.90\00:02:59.01
So it cost my mother,
my parents a considerable
00:02:59.04\00:03:03.02
about money to be
going to this good school
00:03:03.05\00:03:05.44
it was an exclusive
school, very good school.
00:03:05.47\00:03:08.17
I got very good education,
good families and everything
00:03:08.20\00:03:11.54
but that was the situation.
00:03:11.57\00:03:13.19
Today in the canton of Bern,
00:03:13.22\00:03:15.17
they're full of
freedom on education. But--
00:03:15.20\00:03:18.90
In that same
dynamic you spoke about
00:03:18.93\00:03:20.95
existed in the
Soviet Union. Yeah.
00:03:20.98\00:03:23.06
Our members were
penalized, some imprisoned,
00:03:23.09\00:03:25.53
the children taken away
00:03:25.56\00:03:26.93
because they would
not send them to school.
00:03:26.96\00:03:28.33
So I think the fall of
communism in 19--what is it?
00:03:28.36\00:03:34.84
'80. Around there. '80--
00:03:34.87\00:03:36.34
'92, I think.
'80s and '90s. Yeah.
00:03:36.37\00:03:39.38
The fall of communism in
Eastern Europe brought up
00:03:39.41\00:03:42.51
a tremendous amount
of religious liberty.
00:03:42.54\00:03:44.63
There's no question about it.
00:03:44.66\00:03:46.27
The second Vatican
Council, which took place,
00:03:46.30\00:03:50.24
then ended in 1965
when the declaration passed
00:03:50.27\00:03:54.06
was very helpful in
moving Catholic countries
00:03:54.09\00:03:58.05
into direction of
religious liberty.
00:03:58.08\00:04:00.33
Opening them up
for other religious--
00:04:00.36\00:04:01.73
So when I
arrived in Italy in 1952
00:04:01.76\00:04:06.34
to be principal of our
school in Italy, my furniture--
00:04:06.37\00:04:10.26
well, it was actually
later when I got married.
00:04:10.29\00:04:12.83
My furniture stayed, in '54,
stayed in customs for 6 months,
00:04:12.86\00:04:20.10
because they said, "Well,
you're not really allowed to--
00:04:20.13\00:04:22.09
you don't have the permit
to live permanently in Italy."
00:04:22.12\00:04:24.71
I was only allowed
for 3 months at a time.
00:04:24.74\00:04:27.32
Because of my religion,
that was really the problem.
00:04:27.35\00:04:30.95
But as long as I
behaved, they would renew it,
00:04:30.98\00:04:34.00
but if I did
something they didn't like---
00:04:34.03\00:04:35.44
They didn't give
you your furniture.
00:04:35.47\00:04:36.84
They could just tell me goodbye.
00:04:36.87\00:04:38.24
But no furniture.
00:04:38.27\00:04:39.64
Later on, they
actually gave me a permanent--
00:04:39.67\00:04:42.52
kind of a
permanent residence in Italy.
00:04:42.55\00:04:44.64
They finally decided,
00:04:44.67\00:04:46.04
"Well, this guy is
not so bad after all."
00:04:46.07\00:04:47.77
And so on, but
it was interesting.
00:04:47.80\00:04:49.29
They did not give
me permanent residence.
00:04:49.32\00:04:51.67
All they gave me--
a statement that said,
00:04:51.70\00:04:55.23
"He has a permit for
an undetermined time."
00:04:55.26\00:04:58.97
In other words, there was no--
00:04:59.00\00:05:00.37
At their
discretion-- They never--
00:05:00.40\00:05:01.77
it never stopped as long as--
00:05:01.80\00:05:03.30
but any time they could stop it
00:05:03.33\00:05:04.87
if they really
wanted to, but they didn't.
00:05:04.90\00:05:06.90
But so I didn't have to renew it
00:05:06.93\00:05:08.30
every 3 months or so and so on.
00:05:08.33\00:05:10.09
There was two of our
churches in Italy were closed
00:05:10.12\00:05:12.41
by the government and so on.
00:05:12.44\00:05:14.86
In Spain, I
preached in churches in Spain
00:05:14.89\00:05:17.63
were you couldn't leave
the church as a congregation--
00:05:17.66\00:05:21.02
That was in the Franco era.
00:05:21.05\00:05:22.42
You could open the door,
go out one, shut the door,
00:05:22.45\00:05:25.07
another one
would go out and so on.
00:05:25.10\00:05:26.47
One by one, windows
shut, so nobody would know,
00:05:26.50\00:05:29.68
I mean, there was
church meeting there.
00:05:29.71\00:05:31.83
But this was
under the repressive--
00:05:31.86\00:05:33.41
This was under Franco
and later on still and so on.
00:05:33.44\00:05:37.63
And that was the situation,
00:05:37.66\00:05:39.07
if an Adventist in
Spain wanted to get married
00:05:39.10\00:05:42.18
and he had been baptized
as a kid, as a catholic,
00:05:42.21\00:05:47.45
he had a very difficult
time to get married without--
00:05:47.48\00:05:49.43
he had to be
married by a Catholic priest
00:05:49.46\00:05:51.77
and the Catholic
priest would say,
00:05:51.80\00:05:53.55
"But of course I'll marry you,
00:05:53.58\00:05:54.95
but there's a
mass also to connect it
00:05:54.98\00:05:56.74
with the marriage
ceremony and all that."
00:05:56.77\00:05:58.94
So they waited some time
several years to get married.
00:05:58.97\00:06:01.54
Well, sometimes
they would go to France
00:06:01.57\00:06:03.07
or some other country
00:06:03.10\00:06:04.47
and try to get
married there and so on.
00:06:04.50\00:06:06.01
So that was the situation.
00:06:06.04\00:06:07.41
So in that sense, we have
a much better situation today
00:06:07.44\00:06:11.53
than we did, but I have noticed
that even in Eastern Europe,
00:06:11.56\00:06:16.07
there was a kind of a
Prague Spring you might call it,
00:06:16.10\00:06:19.48
you know, back in
the late '80s and '90s,
00:06:19.51\00:06:23.01
where there was really almost
00:06:23.04\00:06:25.41
American type of
religious liberty
00:06:25.44\00:06:27.16
you could do what you please.
00:06:27.19\00:06:28.67
It has slightly
gone back a little bit.
00:06:28.70\00:06:31.75
It hasn't gone back to
the Soviet system like before.
00:06:31.78\00:06:35.25
There's no persecution,
our churches function--
00:06:35.28\00:06:37.91
Well, it's gone
back to before that.
00:06:37.94\00:06:40.32
It's gone back to
the national established
00:06:40.35\00:06:42.42
church where the society--
00:06:42.45\00:06:43.82
And the other
church has privileges
00:06:43.85\00:06:45.22
that we don't have
because they consider it
00:06:45.25\00:06:48.44
to be the national church.
00:06:48.47\00:06:50.22
Well, hasn't it gone
back a little beyond on that?
00:06:50.25\00:06:51.73
It's gone back to where
the entire society was presumed
00:06:51.76\00:06:54.77
to be a certain faith, because
that was the national identity.
00:06:54.80\00:06:57.82
And if you are
not of that faith,
00:06:57.85\00:06:59.79
there's actually overt
prejudice in the village
00:06:59.82\00:07:02.78
perhaps against you.
00:07:02.81\00:07:04.18
Well, there is an increase
00:07:04.21\00:07:05.58
in what you would
call "nationalism"
00:07:05.61\00:07:07.14
in some of these countries.
00:07:07.17\00:07:08.54
And of course some of
those countries are new.
00:07:08.57\00:07:10.06
You have the Ukraine,
you have white Russia.
00:07:10.09\00:07:14.02
They're
independent countries now.
00:07:14.05\00:07:15.65
Well, how do they
establish their character?
00:07:15.68\00:07:18.97
Well, it's nice
to take one church
00:07:19.00\00:07:20.90
and say that's the
church and so on to do that.
00:07:20.93\00:07:23.14
Wait, so we have liberty
but it's not the full liberty
00:07:23.17\00:07:28.20
that we thought
we might get. Yeah.
00:07:28.23\00:07:30.37
So in that sense it has
gone back just a little bit.
00:07:30.40\00:07:32.98
Now in the U.S.
00:07:33.01\00:07:36.11
So far I think
we have pretty good
00:07:36.14\00:07:38.45
religious
liberty, I really think.
00:07:38.48\00:07:41.67
I can remember when I
moved to the General Conference
00:07:41.70\00:07:45.01
of Seventh-day
Adventists in 1980.
00:07:45.04\00:07:47.41
And I became Director
of Public Affairs there
00:07:47.44\00:07:49.64
and stayed there for 15 years
or more--20 years actually,
00:07:49.67\00:07:52.39
working at the
General Conference.
00:07:52.42\00:07:54.56
That Montgomery
County where we were,
00:07:54.59\00:07:58.23
they still had Sunday laws.
00:07:58.26\00:08:00.83
The malls were closed on Sunday.
00:08:00.86\00:08:03.35
Today they're open and so far--
00:08:03.38\00:08:05.47
That's a victory for religious
liberty that we can shop on--
00:08:05.50\00:08:07.85
The State of New
York I mean and state of--
00:08:07.88\00:08:09.69
No, I'm being facetious
but those were carryovers
00:08:09.72\00:08:13.64
from a church that did nothing
but religious activity on Sunday
00:08:13.67\00:08:18.64
which was designated as holy.
00:08:18.67\00:08:20.04
So we have now and
I would say in the US,
00:08:20.07\00:08:24.35
we can't say it's a bad
religious liberty situation.
00:08:24.38\00:08:26.75
Now with the economy that
we have with the recession,
00:08:26.78\00:08:30.42
we have a lot of
Seventh-day Adventists
00:08:30.45\00:08:32.24
that have had trouble
with Sabbath employment.
00:08:32.27\00:08:33.86
In the workplace.
But think about it.
00:08:33.89\00:08:36.46
You know, I can go online
and read any number of magazines
00:08:36.49\00:08:40.20
where people of faith are
absolutely affronted that,
00:08:40.23\00:08:44.65
that they can't--the children
can't indulge in church prayers,
00:08:44.68\00:08:51.14
not church-- school prayers
00:08:51.17\00:08:53.11
at the beginning
through the assembly.
00:08:53.14\00:08:56.62
They're troubled that a
certain judge a few years ago
00:08:56.65\00:08:59.42
wasn't able to put
00:08:59.45\00:09:00.82
the Ten
Commandments in his courtroom.
00:09:00.85\00:09:03.46
The Ten Commandment displays
00:09:03.49\00:09:05.53
in public buildings
are being set aside.
00:09:05.56\00:09:10.74
These people are troubled
that religion is being cast down
00:09:10.77\00:09:14.99
and cast out of public places.
00:09:15.02\00:09:17.75
Is there a restriction
on religious liberty?
00:09:17.78\00:09:19.16
There is no doubt
that there is a growth,
00:09:19.19\00:09:21.62
statistics, and research
by research organizations
00:09:21.65\00:09:25.82
show that America is becoming
a little bit more secular.
00:09:25.85\00:09:30.21
Church going has gone
down just a little bit.
00:09:30.24\00:09:32.62
Not overwhelmingly.
00:09:32.65\00:09:34.02
It's not like Europe, you know,
where the churches are empty.
00:09:34.05\00:09:37.38
No, it's not that way.
00:09:37.41\00:09:38.88
But there is a
growth of secularism.
00:09:38.91\00:09:41.09
You have also a more--
I was gonna say vicious,
00:09:41.12\00:09:45.66
that's not maybe
not the right word,
00:09:45.69\00:09:47.06
but certain very strong attacks
00:09:47.09\00:09:53.11
of atheistic writers
00:09:53.14\00:09:55.39
against
Christianity and all that.
00:09:55.42\00:09:57.50
By the way, I
need to come qualify.
00:09:57.53\00:09:59.08
I was, I was setting it up
and you gave part of the answer.
00:09:59.11\00:10:03.01
Many of the things that
some faith groups in Australia--
00:10:03.04\00:10:06.83
in the United
States rather objecting to
00:10:06.86\00:10:09.31
and not really restrictions
on religious liberty.
00:10:09.34\00:10:12.56
There are changes court mandated
changes to bring us more in line
00:10:12.59\00:10:19.32
with the correct understanding
of the First Amendment.
00:10:19.35\00:10:21.82
And of separation of churches.
00:10:21.85\00:10:23.22
Right. Yeah.
00:10:23.25\00:10:24.62
So they're red herring arguments
00:10:24.65\00:10:26.64
that religion is not
necessarily being marginalized,
00:10:26.67\00:10:31.02
but it's being
brought into line more.
00:10:31.05\00:10:32.88
But what you said is
correct, that along with that,
00:10:32.91\00:10:35.98
we do have an
increasing secularity
00:10:36.01\00:10:38.51
and which is regrettable,
00:10:38.54\00:10:40.28
but militant secularity
is being used, used as often
00:10:40.31\00:10:43.37
the First Amendment as
a weapon against faith.
00:10:43.40\00:10:45.31
Yeah. I think--
00:10:45.34\00:10:46.83
It was Pope Benedict
is constantly going on
00:10:46.86\00:10:50.15
about the
threat from secularity.
00:10:50.18\00:10:52.64
I think there is also a
problem that is happening now.
00:10:52.67\00:10:56.32
Increasingly, we see
religious liberty rights
00:10:56.35\00:11:00.84
in conflict with other rights.
00:11:00.87\00:11:04.06
And that's coming
more and more to the view.
00:11:04.09\00:11:06.65
For example, I think the
whole gay issue could become
00:11:06.68\00:11:10.77
a problem for--of religious
liberty not for the gays.
00:11:10.80\00:11:13.77
Because I don't think gay,
being gay and practicing gay,
00:11:13.80\00:11:18.56
you know, rights is
a religious liberty.
00:11:18.59\00:11:19.96
In itself it's not threat
against the practice of faith.
00:11:19.99\00:11:21.36
It's a civil, it's a civil
liberty, yeah. And that's--
00:11:21.39\00:11:23.93
It's a sign of
moral-- Yeah, but, yeah.
00:11:23.96\00:11:27.67
A moral shift away
from a biblical viewpoint.
00:11:27.70\00:11:30.77
That's not a religious liberty.
00:11:30.80\00:11:32.17
It's part of
secularism in a way and so on.
00:11:32.20\00:11:34.74
But if person
doesn't want to have a gay--
00:11:34.77\00:11:41.99
rent a gay--apartment
to a gay, they will say,
00:11:42.02\00:11:45.70
"You can't do that. You
have to rent it to anybody."
00:11:45.73\00:11:48.95
You know, it's-- they
have the right practice.
00:11:48.98\00:11:52.33
And the person says, "Well,
it's against my conscious."
00:11:52.36\00:11:54.29
Well, you know, things
like that or employment.
00:11:54.32\00:11:57.35
There might be a
problem with employment.
00:11:57.38\00:11:58.94
The church might say, well,
we don't want to employ a gay
00:11:58.97\00:12:02.21
that is for--because
it's against our teachings.
00:12:02.24\00:12:04.26
And they'll say,
"Well, employment--"
00:12:04.29\00:12:05.78
In Canada, they're on the
verge of--they'll be required.
00:12:05.81\00:12:08.55
Yeah, so that it becomes the
religious liberty problem then.
00:12:08.58\00:12:11.96
Yeah. Yeah. So again, we
were so better off overall.
00:12:11.99\00:12:18.66
Well, I would say if you
go back 50 years or 100 years,
00:12:18.69\00:12:25.63
certainly we're much better off.
00:12:25.66\00:12:28.37
I'm not so sure
that we're better off
00:12:28.40\00:12:29.79
than we were 10 years ago.
00:12:29.82\00:12:32.23
What I often
present on this program,
00:12:32.26\00:12:36.28
not usually the better off,
00:12:36.31\00:12:37.80
but I think structurally
there are certain forces
00:12:37.83\00:12:41.72
and tendencies and
changed dynamics in place
00:12:41.75\00:12:46.15
that as they work through,
00:12:46.18\00:12:47.85
it's just going to tighten
it up in very negative way.
00:12:47.88\00:12:50.07
Yeah, I think--
00:12:50.10\00:12:51.47
But until it reaches a
certain point of constriction,
00:12:51.50\00:12:54.77
the average person has no sense
of restriction and perhaps,
00:12:54.80\00:12:58.99
in a certain superficial
way, it may even be more free.
00:12:59.02\00:13:03.09
Well, exactly.
00:13:03.12\00:13:04.49
I think what you're saying
is, that there are events,
00:13:04.52\00:13:08.63
there are thinking
on the term people--
00:13:08.66\00:13:11.26
the way people look
and structures in society.
00:13:11.29\00:13:15.55
Weapons you might--
00:13:15.58\00:13:16.95
not weapons in a
sense of instruments that--
00:13:16.98\00:13:20.61
that the government can use
00:13:20.64\00:13:22.27
that could restrict religious
liberty that are in place.
00:13:22.30\00:13:25.38
They were not in
place a few years ago.
00:13:25.41\00:13:27.38
And prejudice could
turn against a minority.
00:13:27.41\00:13:30.29
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:13:30.32\00:13:31.87
Stay with us as we
continue our discussion
00:13:31.90\00:13:34.07
of are we
better off or worse off
00:13:34.10\00:13:36.30
on religious liberty issues now?
00:13:36.33\00:13:37.97