Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bert Beach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000202B
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00:06 Well, we're back after a short break
00:07 and now we're ready to continue our discussion 00:10 on the emergence of the Roman Catholic Church 00:13 as a force for Religious Freedom, which is good. 00:16 But we're talking about some of the backdrop to that. 00:18 And in the break, you and I were talking 00:20 about some of the goings on in the Vatican state 00:26 and most recently, I think it was the secretary to the pope 00:29 spilled some documents that should've been kept secret 00:33 and he was arreste dand imprisoned in Vatican City. 00:36 So they have a jail in those few little acres. 00:39 Well, they have the--the pope has the Swiss guard there 00:43 that I like to meet with them 00:45 when I stayed a few days in the Vatican 00:47 as I was attending a meeting in Rome 00:49 and they asked me to be an advisor 00:52 representing the Christian World Communions. 00:54 So I was staying inside the Vatican 00:56 and so I had to-- would go there 00:58 and the Swiss Guards would salute me-- Get to know you. 01:00 Command and all that and I would talk to them 01:02 in the Swiss dialect because I grew up in Switzerland 01:05 so I can speak this Swiss German dialect 01:07 and so we had a good time there 01:09 talking with some of these people. 01:10 And so it's an interesting life. 01:12 The Catholic Church is a very powerful church obviously 01:16 in so many countries and so influential 01:19 in the government and many activities 01:22 around the world in diplomacy. 01:23 There's no doubt it has even a status at the UN 01:27 as a non-member government, not a member government 01:31 but non-member government. 01:32 I picked up a Roman Catholic publication the other day, 01:36 official but not mainstream, 01:39 and they were questioning the Vatican status 01:42 in the United Nations that it was improper. 01:45 Because the other churches don't have a status. Right. 01:48 They're there as non-government organizations. NGOs.-- 01:51 General Conference Seventh-day Adventist 01:53 has a status at the UN with ECOSOC and so forth. 01:56 And we can go to meetings, 01:58 make statements-- but we're there as a NGO, 02:02 non-government organization. 02:03 What does ECOSOC stand for? 02:05 Pardon me? ECOSOC? 02:06 ECOSOC, the Economic and Social Council of UN. 02:11 And it's a very important body 02:14 because it deals with Religious Liberty issues and all that. 02:17 There's ECOSOC, then there's the World Court, 02:21 and then there's the, what do they call now, 02:26 I can't even think whether US has the right to veto on the-- 02:30 Oh, Security Council. Security Council, that's it. 02:33 Now, of course, you're probably troubling 02:34 some of our viewers who-- 02:35 As I get older, my memory sometimes skips words. 02:39 Some of our viewers are probably troubled 02:40 those that write me regularly telling about what UN vehicles 02:44 in store is ready to take over the US 02:47 but this is no threat to US governance 02:49 so it all happens in New York and under American sponsorship. 02:53 But there's an attempt isn't there to involve 02:56 all the different countries on any different practical levels? 02:59 It's not just sitting there talking fun. 03:02 There are actual programs 03:04 implementing public and social policy-- 03:06 Now I'm happy that the Catholic Church 03:09 is taking a great interest in Religious Liberty 03:12 and so long as they support Religious Liberty 03:15 for all which is what they say, 03:18 they believe, I think that will be helpful. 03:21 Of course, we expect in the future things 03:24 can change. Yeah. 03:25 The pendulum can swing in a different direction. 03:28 I mean, you realize when we had the events of 9/11... 03:36 we took steps in United States 03:38 to control many things we didn't before. 03:40 I remember when I first visited the Soviet Union-- 03:42 Absolutely, civil liberties were-- 03:43 Back in the '60s and the '70s, 03:46 when it was still under heavy communism and all that, 03:49 I was very upset with all the controls. 03:52 They would control you at the desk where you register, 03:56 then you're controlled at another desk, 03:58 and then controlled at another-- 03:59 and then just as you walk down to the plane, 04:01 they would control you again and if you want-- 04:02 And that's what we did now, isn't it? 04:04 And if you wanted to take a train at the train station, 04:07 you had to show your passport and visa 04:10 and everything to show to get on the train. 04:12 I said what a repressive regime. 04:14 Well, now when I want to get on the plane, 04:16 I have to show my passport 04:19 or my driver's license and so forth. 04:21 We have these controls, why? 04:23 Because there is a danger in the country. There is a-- 04:28 But we need to be careful 04:29 because in many countries over many years, 04:32 an emergency has been shown to precipitate 04:35 some of the civil liberty hazards-- Exactly. 04:38 And sometimes in order to have security, 04:43 people are willing to give up some liberties. 04:45 And that's a very sad thing. 04:46 Since 9/11, we've had a cavalcade of people stand up, 04:49 "I'll give away any liberty for security." 04:52 And, you know, it's a puerile sort of a discussion. 04:53 I mean, if you walk through the streets in our country, 04:57 there are cameras everywhere taking pictures of you. 05:01 You go into stores. You come out of the store. 05:05 You go into cinema, I understand, 05:07 you come out and they have-- if something happens, 05:11 during something is stolen, 05:13 they have pictures of people that were there. 05:14 And the technology has handed that ability 05:16 to those in control. 05:19 They've not done it with a sinister purpose. 05:21 But I believe it, it is sinister that any government 05:24 has the ability to sift through visual and computer reality 05:29 because all the emails 05:30 and other communications are stored long term. 05:33 They don't vanish into thin air. Yeah. Now we have terrorism. 05:36 People imagine that they're sitting quietly at home 05:38 and doing something and no one knows about. 05:40 All of that information is kept by the government 05:43 and permanently and they can then run a check with you. 05:48 And someone made an interesting comment recently. 05:50 They say, "Why should I worry? 05:52 I'm doing nothing wrong." 05:53 And a person that was working with National Security 05:56 made an interesting comment. 05:58 He said, "Remember, he said, 06:00 you are not the one that defines what is wrong. 06:04 The government will define it or a government." 06:06 So their definition could still implicate you 06:11 in something that you had no idea about. 06:13 Yeah, but it could happen. 06:14 And I'm trying to say when there is terrorism, 06:18 obviously-- There's legitimate-- 06:19 I don't want to be on a plane flying over the Atlantic 06:23 and find myself blown into the air and disappear, 06:26 nobody ever heard of you again and so forth. 06:29 I mean, you accept certain controls. 06:32 But also when you accept the controls, 06:36 you have to know 06:37 that you need to control the controllers. Right. 06:41 So in an open democratic society, 06:45 it needs to be open. 06:46 There needs to be transparency. 06:48 There needs to be responsibility. 06:49 And this is not a Religious Liberty concern 06:51 but it's a civil liberty concern that impacts religion. 06:54 Well, yeah, but Religious Liberty 06:56 and civil liberty are very closely tied together. 06:59 Well, not closely, they're inseparable. 07:02 One's affected, the other is affected. 07:05 And I think that in a general sense, 07:07 is a significant statement. 07:09 In this post 9/11 period 07:11 where there's legitimate needs to monitor, 07:14 we can presume that Religious Liberty 07:18 has the shadow of a threat hanging over it. 07:20 Yeah, yeah, and civil liberties. 07:23 Of course, yes. 07:25 Because I'm sure that attacks against Religious Liberty 07:29 will probably start with civil liberties attack. 07:34 I mean, the two things are so close together that, 07:37 you know, sometime, it may be coming a tangential affect 07:42 and you don't even notice that 07:43 until it affects your Religious Liberty-- 07:45 Well, I'm sure you noticed that in the years 07:46 you were working with Religious Liberty 07:48 that in some countries, you have cases where, 07:51 you know, Hindus might burn a Muslim village 07:53 and that sort of stuff. 07:54 But most of the modern persecution start subtly. 07:59 There might be zoning issues or employment issues 08:03 but behind it lies the religious prejudice 08:05 or a negative agenda right? Well, and also-- 08:08 So it doesn't always present as just I'm doing this 08:10 because I don't like your religion. 08:12 And, therefore, I pointed out earlier 08:14 and I think it was another program we had together 08:17 that it's all right 08:21 to have separation of church and state. 08:23 And it's a good thing. 08:24 But if it's a hateful or a controlling separation 08:31 where the government wants separation 08:33 in order to control the church 08:35 so that the church can't control the state, 08:38 you have a danger situation that can develop. Absolutely. 08:40 And as many of the framers of the US constitution 08:44 and those pioneers pointed out that the good governance 08:48 depends on a population with morality 08:52 and religious sentiments. Exactly. 08:54 So if they were a secular group of people 08:56 with personal antagonism to religion, 08:59 separation of church and state also 09:01 from the citizenry point of view would be not good-- 09:03 May be very dangerous. Yeah. 09:05 Or at least negative. 09:08 I think you stated it very well. 09:09 We can be happy that in our age post reformation 09:14 and many years on from the inquisition, 09:16 the Roman Catholic Church seems to have gotten the light 09:19 in many years and is forging ahead 09:21 and showing a leadership role on Religious Liberty. 09:24 Well, I'm willing to welcome the support of everybody 09:29 who wants to support Religious Liberty. 09:32 But I want to also make sure 09:35 that I'm supporting Religious Liberty 09:36 for everyone not only for your own interest. 09:40 I think it's a very short-minded--short sighted 09:44 rather view for a Seventh-day Adventist to say, 09:47 "Well, I want Religious Liberty, so I can keep the Sabbath. 09:50 But I don't care about the Religious Liberty 09:51 of those who want to keep Sunday." 09:53 I think Religious Liberty is for everyone. 09:55 It needs to be broad based. 09:57 It needs to be broad based and broadly supported 10:00 and open to everyone. 10:01 So I like to say that we as Seventh-day Adventists, 10:04 we practice Religious Liberty 10:06 in the Religious Liberty department. 10:08 And in the International Religious Liberty Association 10:11 that we have, we practice Religious Liberty 10:14 for everyone not just for Seventh-day Adventists. 10:17 We want to see every single religion in the world, 10:21 be it in the United States, be it over in Indonesia, 10:24 wherever it might be, 10:26 we want them to have full Religious Liberty. 10:31 Northern Island has some of the most unfortunate suburbs 10:35 in the Western Christian world. 10:37 The antagonisms of the reformation 10:40 and of the wars of religion 10:42 that followed are played out there daily 10:45 where Protestants and Catholic both demonize each other. 10:49 That's very unfortunate because it's worth remembering 10:52 that reformers like Martin Luther 10:55 in particular were Roman Catholics 10:58 and they brought a breath of fresh air in Christian charity 11:02 to a complicated situation. 11:04 It's worth remembering as we discussed 11:07 at some length on this program that Vatican II 11:10 brought a breath of fresh air to Roman Catholicism. 11:14 It certainly did not change the underlying dynamic 11:16 that Protestants found so troubling. 11:19 But on a human level, it allowed God's spirit to move. 11:23 It allowed principles in particular of religious freedom 11:27 to be more broadly understood 11:29 and all who stand for Religious Liberty 11:32 must accept that Roman Catholicism 11:35 is now speaking correctly on the general topic 11:39 and unfortunately recognize that many Roman Catholics 11:42 as well as Protestants are persecuted around the world 11:46 and we would encourage them to remain true 11:49 to a gospel commission and Christian charity 11:53 with love that applies to all people 11:56 so that we can defend Religious Liberty 11:59 for all people, for all time indeed until God comes and says, 12:05 "Time no longer, come home to My Kingdom." 12:10 For "Liberty Insider," this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17