Well, we're back
after a short break
00:00:06.04\00:00:07.90
and now we're ready to
continue our discussion
00:00:07.93\00:00:10.76
on the emergence of
the Roman Catholic Church
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as a force for Religious
Freedom, which is good.
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But we're talking about
some of the backdrop to that.
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And in the break,
you and I were talking
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about some of the
goings on in the Vatican state
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and most recently, I think
it was the secretary to the pope
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spilled some documents
that should've been kept secret
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and he was arreste dand
imprisoned in Vatican City.
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So they have a jail in
those few little acres.
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Well, they have the--the
pope has the Swiss guard there
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that I like to meet with them
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when I stayed a
few days in the Vatican
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as I was
attending a meeting in Rome
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and they asked
me to be an advisor
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representing the
Christian World Communions.
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So I was staying
inside the Vatican
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and so I had to-- would go there
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and the Swiss Guards would
salute me-- Get to know you.
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Command and all that
and I would talk to them
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in the Swiss dialect
because I grew up in Switzerland
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so I can speak this
Swiss German dialect
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and so we had a good time there
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talking with
some of these people.
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And so it's an interesting life.
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The Catholic Church is a
very powerful church obviously
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in so many
countries and so influential
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in the government
and many activities
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around the world in diplomacy.
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There's no doubt it
has even a status at the UN
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as a non-member government,
not a member government
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but non-member government.
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I picked up a Roman Catholic
publication the other day,
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official but not mainstream,
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and they were
questioning the Vatican status
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in the United
Nations that it was improper.
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Because the other churches
don't have a status. Right.
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They're there as non-government
organizations. NGOs.--
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General Conference
Seventh-day Adventist
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has a status at the UN
with ECOSOC and so forth.
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And we can go to meetings,
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make statements--
but we're there as a NGO,
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non-government organization.
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What does ECOSOC stand for?
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Pardon me? ECOSOC?
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ECOSOC, the Economic
and Social Council of UN.
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And it's a very important body
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because it deals with Religious
Liberty issues and all that.
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There's ECOSOC, then
there's the World Court,
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and then there's the,
what do they call now,
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I can't even think whether US
has the right to veto on the--
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Oh, Security Council.
Security Council, that's it.
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Now, of course,
you're probably troubling
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some of our viewers who--
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As I get older, my
memory sometimes skips words.
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Some of our viewers
are probably troubled
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those that write me regularly
telling about what UN vehicles
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in store is ready
to take over the US
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but this is no
threat to US governance
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so it all happens in New York
and under American sponsorship.
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But there's an
attempt isn't there to involve
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all the different countries on
any different practical levels?
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It's not just
sitting there talking fun.
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There are actual programs
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implementing
public and social policy--
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Now I'm happy that
the Catholic Church
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is taking a great
interest in Religious Liberty
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and so long as they
support Religious Liberty
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for all which is what they say,
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they believe, I
think that will be helpful.
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Of course, we
expect in the future things
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can change. Yeah.
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The pendulum can swing
in a different direction.
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I mean, you realize when
we had the events of 9/11...
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we took steps in United States
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to control many
things we didn't before.
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I remember when I first
visited the Soviet Union--
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Absolutely,
civil liberties were--
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Back in the '60s and the '70s,
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when it was still under
heavy communism and all that,
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I was very upset
with all the controls.
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They would control you at
the desk where you register,
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then you're
controlled at another desk,
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and then controlled at another--
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and then just as you
walk down to the plane,
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they would control you
again and if you want--
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And that's what
we did now, isn't it?
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And if you wanted to take
a train at the train station,
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you had to show
your passport and visa
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and everything to
show to get on the train.
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I said what a repressive regime.
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Well, now when I
want to get on the plane,
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I have to show my passport
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or my driver's
license and so forth.
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We have these controls, why?
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Because there is a danger
in the country. There is a--
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But we need to be careful
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because in many
countries over many years,
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an emergency has
been shown to precipitate
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some of the civil
liberty hazards-- Exactly.
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And sometimes in
order to have security,
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people are willing to
give up some liberties.
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And that's a very sad thing.
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Since 9/11, we've had a
cavalcade of people stand up,
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"I'll give away any
liberty for security."
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And, you know, it's a
puerile sort of a discussion.
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I mean, if you walk through
the streets in our country,
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there are cameras everywhere
taking pictures of you.
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You go into stores.
You come out of the store.
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You go into
cinema, I understand,
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you come out and they
have-- if something happens,
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during something is stolen,
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they have pictures of
people that were there.
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And the technology
has handed that ability
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to those in control.
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They've not done it
with a sinister purpose.
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But I believe it, it is
sinister that any government
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has the ability to sift through
visual and computer reality
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because all the emails
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and other communications
are stored long term.
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They don't vanish into thin air.
Yeah. Now we have terrorism.
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People imagine that
they're sitting quietly at home
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and doing something
and no one knows about.
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All of that information
is kept by the government
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and permanently and they
can then run a check with you.
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And someone made an
interesting comment recently.
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They say, "Why should I worry?
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I'm doing nothing wrong."
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And a person that was
working with National Security
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made an interesting comment.
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He said, "Remember, he said,
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you are not the one
that defines what is wrong.
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The government will
define it or a government."
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So their definition
could still implicate you
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in something that
you had no idea about.
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Yeah, but it could happen.
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And I'm trying to say
when there is terrorism,
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obviously-- There's legitimate--
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I don't want to be on a
plane flying over the Atlantic
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and find myself blown
into the air and disappear,
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nobody ever heard of
you again and so forth.
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I mean, you
accept certain controls.
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But also when you
accept the controls,
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you have to know
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that you need to
control the controllers. Right.
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So in an open
democratic society,
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it needs to be open.
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There needs to be transparency.
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There needs to
be responsibility.
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And this is not a
Religious Liberty concern
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but it's a civil liberty
concern that impacts religion.
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Well, yeah, but
Religious Liberty
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and civil liberty are
very closely tied together.
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Well, not closely,
they're inseparable.
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One's affected,
the other is affected.
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And I think that
in a general sense,
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is a significant statement.
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In this post 9/11 period
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where there's
legitimate needs to monitor,
00:07:11.57\00:07:14.46
we can presume
that Religious Liberty
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has the shadow of a
threat hanging over it.
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Yeah, yeah, and civil liberties.
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Of course, yes.
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Because I'm sure that attacks
against Religious Liberty
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will probably start
with civil liberties attack.
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I mean, the two things
are so close together that,
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you know, sometime, it may
be coming a tangential affect
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and you don't even notice that
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until it affects
your Religious Liberty--
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Well, I'm sure you
noticed that in the years
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you were working
with Religious Liberty
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that in some
countries, you have cases where,
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you know, Hindus
might burn a Muslim village
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and that sort of stuff.
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But most of the modern
persecution start subtly.
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There might be zoning
issues or employment issues
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but behind it lies
the religious prejudice
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or a negative agenda
right? Well, and also--
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So it doesn't always
present as just I'm doing this
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because I don't
like your religion.
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And, therefore, I
pointed out earlier
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and I think it was
another program we had together
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that it's all right
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to have separation
of church and state.
00:08:21.72\00:08:23.29
And it's a good thing.
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But if it's a hateful
or a controlling separation
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where the
government wants separation
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in order to control the church
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so that the church
can't control the state,
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you have a danger situation
that can develop. Absolutely.
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And as many of the
framers of the US constitution
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and those pioneers pointed
out that the good governance
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depends on a
population with morality
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and religious
sentiments. Exactly.
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So if they were a
secular group of people
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with personal
antagonism to religion,
00:08:56.98\00:08:59.22
separation of
church and state also
00:08:59.25\00:09:01.14
from the citizenry point
of view would be not good--
00:09:01.17\00:09:03.35
May be very dangerous. Yeah.
00:09:03.38\00:09:05.60
Or at least negative.
00:09:05.63\00:09:08.15
I think you stated it very well.
00:09:08.18\00:09:09.69
We can be happy that in
our age post reformation
00:09:09.72\00:09:14.14
and many years on
from the inquisition,
00:09:14.17\00:09:16.82
the Roman Catholic Church
seems to have gotten the light
00:09:16.85\00:09:19.64
in many years
and is forging ahead
00:09:19.67\00:09:21.90
and showing a leadership
role on Religious Liberty.
00:09:21.93\00:09:24.11
Well, I'm willing to
welcome the support of everybody
00:09:24.14\00:09:29.48
who wants to
support Religious Liberty.
00:09:29.51\00:09:31.97
But I want to also make sure
00:09:32.00\00:09:35.34
that I'm
supporting Religious Liberty
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for everyone not only
for your own interest.
00:09:36.90\00:09:40.22
I think it's a very
short-minded--short sighted
00:09:40.25\00:09:44.00
rather view for a
Seventh-day Adventist to say,
00:09:44.03\00:09:47.27
"Well, I want Religious Liberty,
so I can keep the Sabbath.
00:09:47.30\00:09:50.45
But I don't care
about the Religious Liberty
00:09:50.48\00:09:51.94
of those who
want to keep Sunday."
00:09:51.97\00:09:53.62
I think Religious
Liberty is for everyone.
00:09:53.65\00:09:55.60
It needs to be broad based.
00:09:55.63\00:09:57.00
It needs to be broad
based and broadly supported
00:09:57.03\00:09:59.99
and open to everyone.
00:10:00.02\00:10:01.68
So I like to say that we
as Seventh-day Adventists,
00:10:01.71\00:10:04.83
we practice Religious Liberty
00:10:04.86\00:10:06.40
in the Religious
Liberty department.
00:10:06.43\00:10:08.37
And in the International
Religious Liberty Association
00:10:08.40\00:10:11.12
that we have, we
practice Religious Liberty
00:10:11.15\00:10:14.17
for everyone not just
for Seventh-day Adventists.
00:10:14.20\00:10:17.52
We want to see every
single religion in the world,
00:10:17.55\00:10:21.21
be it in the United
States, be it over in Indonesia,
00:10:21.24\00:10:24.89
wherever it might be,
00:10:24.92\00:10:26.29
we want them to have
full Religious Liberty.
00:10:26.32\00:10:29.48
Northern Island has some of
the most unfortunate suburbs
00:10:31.69\00:10:35.20
in the Western Christian world.
00:10:35.23\00:10:37.95
The antagonisms
of the reformation
00:10:37.98\00:10:40.61
and of the wars of religion
00:10:40.64\00:10:42.69
that followed are
played out there daily
00:10:42.72\00:10:45.05
where Protestants and Catholic
both demonize each other.
00:10:45.08\00:10:49.73
That's very unfortunate
because it's worth remembering
00:10:49.76\00:10:52.85
that reformers
like Martin Luther
00:10:52.88\00:10:55.51
in particular
were Roman Catholics
00:10:55.54\00:10:58.73
and they brought a breath of
fresh air in Christian charity
00:10:58.76\00:11:02.80
to a complicated situation.
00:11:02.83\00:11:04.20
It's worth
remembering as we discussed
00:11:04.75\00:11:07.05
at some length on this
program that Vatican II
00:11:07.08\00:11:10.61
brought a breath of
fresh air to Roman Catholicism.
00:11:10.64\00:11:14.02
It certainly did not
change the underlying dynamic
00:11:14.05\00:11:16.87
that Protestants
found so troubling.
00:11:16.90\00:11:19.61
But on a human level, it
allowed God's spirit to move.
00:11:19.64\00:11:23.32
It allowed principles in
particular of religious freedom
00:11:23.35\00:11:27.22
to be more broadly understood
00:11:27.25\00:11:29.56
and all who stand
for Religious Liberty
00:11:29.59\00:11:32.72
must accept that
Roman Catholicism
00:11:32.75\00:11:35.13
is now speaking
correctly on the general topic
00:11:35.16\00:11:39.46
and unfortunately recognize
that many Roman Catholics
00:11:39.49\00:11:42.95
as well as Protestants are
persecuted around the world
00:11:42.98\00:11:46.19
and we would
encourage them to remain true
00:11:46.22\00:11:49.68
to a gospel
commission and Christian charity
00:11:49.71\00:11:53.86
with love that
applies to all people
00:11:53.89\00:11:56.75
so that we can
defend Religious Liberty
00:11:56.78\00:11:59.21
for all people, for all time
indeed until God comes and says,
00:11:59.24\00:12:05.01
"Time no longer,
come home to My Kingdom."
00:12:05.04\00:12:08.25
For "Liberty
Insider," this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:10.57\00:12:14.97