Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bert Beach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000202A
|
00:22 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is a regular program that brings up-to-date news, 00:27 views, and discussion on religious liberty concerns 00:30 in the United States and around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program today is Dr. Bert Beach. 00:40 Welcome, Bert. I'm glad to meet you. 00:42 I've known you long enough I think to call you Bert. 00:46 The Religious Liberty world is constantly changing. 00:51 I grew up reading Liberty Magazine 00:53 which I now edit and reading comments from pioneers 00:56 of our church like Ellen White. 00:58 She said that "We should be the head and not the tail." 01:01 And with Religious Liberty under your leadership 01:03 for many years, you know, 01:04 we were a force to be reckoned with internationally. 01:07 But as I look at what's happening in the world now, 01:10 I have to say that the Roman Catholic Church 01:13 which has an interesting history, 01:16 reformation was the case with what went on then, 01:20 they were not for religious freedom. 01:22 But now they're moving into a dominant position 01:25 in statements, in activity 01:28 and structure on religious liberty, aren't they? 01:31 Well, there's no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church, 01:35 I think, to be honest, 01:37 we'd have to say that Roman Catholic Church 01:39 is a Johnny come lately 01:41 when it comes to religious liberty. 01:44 In fact, we had an interesting meeting 01:46 when I was at the II Vatican Council as an observer there. 01:50 I attended a press conference by the US Bishop's Conference 01:54 organized a press conference every day in the afternoon. 01:57 I was there with Arthur Maxwell, 02:01 the editor of "Signs of the Times." 02:03 And some of our viewers may remember 02:05 the Bible story that you were-- 02:06 And the Bible story and all that 02:08 and Uncle Arthur's bedtime stories, you know that. 02:12 So he was a very interesting character. 02:14 And we went to that, that press conference. 02:17 It was the day after, I think, 02:21 the II Vatican Council had voted 02:23 the Religious Liberty Declaration 02:25 which they had-- took 4 years during the council 02:28 finally to get it through and it was voted. 02:31 And so he made, he got up I remember at that-- 02:33 Well, this was Dignitatis Humanae, wasn't that? 02:35 Yeah, exactly. That's the statement. 02:37 And it was 19-- this was if you go 1965, 02:43 at the end of II Vatican Council. 02:46 And he was there and he got up and said, 02:48 "We know"--and he was a kind of a person 02:50 that liked to be very-- what do you call it-- 02:54 interesting and lively and dramatic and so forth. 02:59 And he said, "Well, can you tell me"-- 03:03 question that he was asking the bishop's panel. 03:07 "Why it took the Roman Catholic Church, 03:10 the Roman fundamental 03:18 basic Catholic Church, infallible Church," 03:23 he had used that adjective too, 03:26 "apostolic church, 03:28 so long to discover religious liberty after the Protestants 03:31 in society in general had found it much earlier? 03:34 And of course, there was a roar of the laughter in the assembly. 03:39 And, of course, that was the point. 03:41 It was very difficult for them 03:42 because there were so many statements 03:44 from the 19th century by the Popes at that time. 03:49 Well, one of the Popes called 03:51 religious liberty a pernicious concept. 03:52 And the ravings of a mad mind and so forth. 03:56 So they were very much against religious liberty. 03:59 And so now they came in favor of religious liberty. 04:02 So there was a kind of a change. 04:03 What do you think caused the change? 04:06 Well, of course, society in general to begin with. 04:08 I mean, societies-- 04:10 as Uncle Arthur said the constitution, 04:13 other countries and other churches 04:16 and society in general 04:18 was getting in favor of religious liberty 04:19 including Italy and so forth. 04:22 So that was the way things were going. 04:25 And I think also some people in the Catholic Church 04:28 felt that they were wrong, that persecution is wrong. 04:32 They had said and, of course, 04:34 this is what they said at the II Vatican Council. 04:36 They said, "Error has been has been our-- 04:39 it's been our teaching in the past 04:41 that error has no rights." 04:43 And the other day I heard Cardinal Dolan, 04:46 that's bishop of New York. 04:47 Yeah. He said that. 04:49 He says there was a time we held error has no rights. 04:51 Had no rights. 04:52 But at the II Vatican Council, 04:54 the Roman Catholic Church discovered 04:55 that the human being has rights. 04:58 And that's the way they got around the issue 05:00 of whether error has rights and let's leave that alone 05:03 and to say the human being has rights and no one has 05:07 the right to keep a person from practicing his religion 05:11 or to force him to follow another religion. 05:14 Any particular religion. 05:16 So that's very, pretty good statement. 05:17 So the Catholic Church went down that road. 05:20 Now you may ask but why does the Catholic Church now 05:23 take a lead a little bit in this? 05:25 Well, I think partly 05:27 because the teaching of the II Vatican Council, 05:29 several papal declarations over the years 05:33 have been in favor of going even little bit further 05:36 than the II Vatican Council when it came to religious liberty. 05:39 And so they actually-- I think many of them 05:42 actually--they-- that's their belief. 05:46 Then in addition there was the problem 05:48 that their Catholic church has been faced 05:50 even in United States with certain what you might call 05:54 religious liberty problems for its institutions 05:58 not so much for Roman Catholic individuals 06:01 but for the institutions in regards to abortion 06:05 and in regards to-- what do we call it, 06:09 the prevention of-- Birth control. 06:11 Birth control and so forth. 06:13 And so they feel that that's part of their teaching 06:16 and for their institutions to be forced 06:20 because they receive government money 06:22 to give birth control information 06:26 and help and provide abortions, 06:29 they feel that goes against the teachings of their church. 06:32 And therefore, their institutions are faced 06:35 to break their beliefs and it goes against religious liberty. 06:40 On one level, I could be facetious 06:42 about it and say that they're wanting 06:45 to revert to the old practice where they take the state money 06:49 and use the state to advance their viewpoint. 06:51 They want to keep taking the money 06:53 but they want the state to bend to their religious 06:56 viewpoint through state funded institutions. 06:58 So I'm very troubled by what's happening with that. 07:01 But back to their leadership position, 07:04 I don't-- you're right, 07:05 I don't think it's a framed position. 07:07 I think it's consistent with Vatican II. Yeah. 07:10 Good statements were made on religious liberty 07:12 but there's a certain irony 07:14 that--I'm interested in your comment on it. 07:18 Vatican II was a refreshing viewpoint 07:20 that came in the Catholic Church worldwide 07:24 but progressively there's a rearguard action 07:27 being fought by many within the Catholic Church 07:30 who don't like Vatican II and would like to roll it back. 07:32 And sometimes I think that Benedict himself is not 07:36 a true believer in all that Vatican II entails. 07:40 And yet at the same time, 07:42 they're forging ahead with the religious liberty. 07:44 Do we have, of course, 07:45 to worry that as they become a defective global leader 07:49 in religious liberty and yet, Vatican II evaporates, 07:53 what form of religious liberty leadership 07:55 would they really be-- 07:57 Well, it's hard to know. Giving them? 07:59 They--I brought it up on another religious television program, 08:05 "The American Religious Townhall," 08:07 a few weeks ago. 08:08 We have raised the issue. It is-- 08:11 We're supposed to advertise other programs on this. 08:13 It's fine. Is Rome, really the appropriate place 08:18 to be the center of a foundation or a committee, a group 08:25 that is heading religious liberty for the world? 08:28 And I said is it really ready to do that because 08:32 that's not the reputation so far of being 08:35 the great leaders in religious liberty. 08:37 It is I think favoring religious liberty at the present time. 08:40 But it's right now it has this ethical problems-- 08:45 It has a lot of baggage. For its institutions. 08:46 Has a lot of baggage.] 08:47 And I think it's one way of being able to try to handle 08:50 those institutions on the American level, 08:52 but then also having the kind of a world, 08:55 a watchman regarding religious liberty in Rome itself. 09:00 Yeah. And, you know, more power to them 09:03 but they've somehow been able to do this, 09:06 well, navigating the moral 09:07 or immoral shows of the priestly scandal which in other places, 09:13 in other times, in other institutions, 09:14 you would've thought, would've embarrassed them 09:17 out of contention or maybe even hampered their efforts 09:21 but they are moving ahead. 09:23 And I just think part of it is a very sad reality 09:26 that worldwide Roman Catholics have been persecuted 09:30 in very large numbers at the moment. 09:32 So they gained a lot of sympathy and, 09:34 you know, we all sympathize with that. 09:36 In the Middle East, Roman Catholics are being persecuted, 09:39 I think, quite aggressively and in South East Asia the same. 09:46 So I think that's some of their street credentials, 09:50 Vatican II is the ideology that's intact 09:53 and so we wish them well. 09:54 But it's a historical anomaly, isn't it? 09:57 That they could have-- It is in that sense, 10:00 it's--as I said earlier in the program 10:02 it's a latecomer taking a lead in religious liberty. 10:06 And, of course, as far as I'm concerned 10:08 they're very welcome to promote religious liberty. Yeah. 10:11 Because the Catholic Church even though 10:14 it has many problems-- 10:16 you mentioned the pedophile problem 10:18 and all that-- it has many problems. 10:20 It has also still considerable power. 10:25 If you compare the World Council of Churches' influence 10:29 to the Roman Catholic Church, it's--there's no comparison. 10:33 The Roman Catholic Church, if the Pope says something, 10:35 all newspapers publish it. 10:37 If the general secretary of the World Council says something, 10:41 many of them will not publish anything 10:42 and if they do publish it, 10:44 it will be a little item in the paper-- 10:46 My enduring, you know, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist 10:49 as you and "Great Controversy" explains 10:52 our historical understanding pretty well. 10:54 It's a book that we can recommend 10:55 to our viewers generally. 10:58 That I look to history and it just seems very odd to me 11:03 that we're seeing this emerging influence 11:06 because you put your finger on it with your comment before, 11:09 when the Pope says something, nations stand up and listen. 11:13 Why is that? 11:15 One of the reasons is that he functions 11:16 as a world secular governmental leader. 11:21 And right there, there is the problem. 11:26 Ideally, we want a separation between church and state 11:29 and here we have a church 11:30 that functions as a state directly. 11:34 It sort of, it can jump one way to the other. 11:37 And, you know, they're not doing 11:39 anything illegal but structurally, 11:40 it's such a dissonance within the system. 11:43 Well, it's-- That even with good intentions, 11:45 I think they will have trouble being 11:48 a truly honest broker on religious freedom. 11:50 And let's say this, the Roman Catholic church 11:52 in the past was a state, no doubt. 11:55 The Papal States. 11:57 Central part of Italy was a country-- 12:00 The few warrior Popes took it on themselves to fulfill-- 12:03 I know. But there were 4, 5 million people living there. 12:07 It was a state. 12:08 Today, the Vatican area there, 12:13 107, I think, acres given to the papacy by--Mussolini. 12:20 Mussolini, the dictator in Italy of fascism 12:23 who wanted of course to get the support 12:25 of the Catholic church for his activity, 12:29 some of his programs in Italy and so forth, 12:33 made that arrangement and said now this will be 12:35 a extra territorial area and that can function 12:38 like a state but of course, it's an artificial state. 12:41 I mean, you know, it has ambassadors to other country. 12:44 Where do the ambassadors live? 12:46 Well, they have to live in Italy. 12:47 They can't live here. I mean, it's-- 12:49 I went to the US ambassador at the Vatican residents 12:52 a few years back and I noticed it was in Rome, 12:54 not in Vatican City-- Yeah. 12:58 It's an artificial state and it functions-- 13:01 You know, in Australia, there are many individuals, 13:05 quirky individuals who've separated from the country. 13:07 When I say many, several. Dozens of them. 13:10 And I remember this King Leonard of Hutt, 13:14 property owner out in the desert, 13:16 he's got few thousands of acres of property 13:20 and he issues stamps himself. 13:21 Well, King Leonard of Hutt in Australia 13:23 who nobody has heard of 13:25 has multiple times the area of Vatican City, 13:29 I mean it's Liechtenstein or something. 13:31 It's larger, I'm sure-- 13:33 Well, Liechtenstein is a historical-- 13:36 That's what I mean but they're the--But it's moral. 13:38 They're the little countries of-- 13:41 It's somewhat artificial. It's artificial. 13:43 In its order, so that the Pope can say, "I'm by myself, 13:47 I'm independent of any government control." 13:50 That was the approach. 13:52 We better cut and break here. 13:53 The time gets by when we are heavy into the discussion 13:56 but stay with us, we'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17