Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
with guest Bert Beach,
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we were talking
about academic freedom.
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And, Bert, you were,
without naming anyone,
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remembering a college professor
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who was so out of agreement
with what he had been hired
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to teach that he
voluntarily left.
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And you admired him
for that, didn't you?
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Yeah, he felt that
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he was not comfortable
anymore in our setting.
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And he went to
another institution
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and had quite a
good carrier there.
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And I thought he was
a Christian gentleman
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but he was no longer really,
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a fully believing
Seventh-day Adventist.
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Yeah, You know, when we talk
about educators in particular,
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while they're often
dealing with young adults,
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I think in a real as
well as a figurative way,
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it's sort of what
Jesus was saying about
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the responsibility
of a knowing adult
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in dealing with
children, I think.
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And what did Jesus say?
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He says, "If you steer one
of these young children wrong,
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better that a millstone
be put around your neck."
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And I think there's
a heavy responsibility
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on an educator more knowing,
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may be more
competent to judge ambiguities
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who will sort of
disillusion or misdirect
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the younger
person, don't you think?
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I think an educator
has a great responsibility.
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The parents have a
great responsibility
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because they're
educators in the home. Right.
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They have a
great responsibility.
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Pastor has a
great responsibility
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because he
educates his congregation.
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On Sabbath
morning, he has a sermon.
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They all have to
listen if they want to or not
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and he has a responsibility.
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So I think teachers
in our institutions,
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and of course,
academic freedom really applies,
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I suppose, more to
college institutions
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and university
level institutions.
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We talk about academic freedom,
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I suppose, also
in the high school
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if you want to but
it's not really a burning,
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I think, issue
there on that level
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because they don't get into
very complicated ideological,
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theological discussions too
much more on the college level
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where people are
trying to discover new truths.
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And, of course, when
you discover new truths,
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they should not be
too much in opposition
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with the former truths.
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Otherwise, you have
a real problem there.
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I don't think they
should be in any opposition.
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And so I think our
people have to be responsible
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and realize that if a
teacher is teaching things
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that are outside of what
the institution stands for,
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I mean, if you
are in an institution,
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it advocates certain
fundamental views on things,
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and the very existence of
the institution was established,
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you could have an
institution let's say,
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we're having emphasis
on whatever it might be.
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I can't think of
anything right now to suggest--
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On wearing knickerbockers.
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Okay, whatever, the founders,
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the church, that
established that institution,
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wanted that institution
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in order to prepare
pastors let's say? Yeah.
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And then somebody--
teacher gets up and says,
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"You know, I don't think
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we need pastors
anymore in the church.
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We should have the
laypeople lead our church.
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No, we don't need
pastors. We don't need that."
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Well, if an institution
that is there to prepare pastors
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and then teachers say
we don't need pastors,
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well, what is that person doing
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in that
institution, you know? Yeah.
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You would think that the person
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wouldn't even
think of being there.
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He would say,
"Well, it's not my place.
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I don't believe
it. I can't sustain it.
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I can't support it. I
need to go elsewhere."
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Well, may be that's
not the best example,
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because you could say that
that's a matter of tactics. Yes.
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And that he could start a
dialog within the structure.
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But, certainly, if
you have an institution
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that's to advance Christianity
and accepts the Trinity
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and you have someone that's
got a Unitarian viewpoint,
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I mean, they're undercutting
the very spiritual concept
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that that
organization stands for.
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But, I think, you agree with me
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and we need to tell our
viewers this is worth discussing
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but because of the
nature of the church
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and of the free association
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entailed in
membership and participation,
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it's not really
a religious liberty
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issue in structure, is it?
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Well, it's hard to
say. I think it overlaps.
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Well, there's an
overlapping there.
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There's elements of it but--
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But it's more--
But it's a matter--
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religious liberty
has to be coercion
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if someone's forcing
you to believe something.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Punishing you as
Luther was under,
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the bull was more
than just bad words,
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you know, his very life
and liberty was at stake there.
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Of course, there are some people
that would go so far to say
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that if a
teacher did not believe
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a certain belief of the church
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not because he is not
teaching something wrong,
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he's teaching all right,
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but he himself
doesn't really believe it
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that he shouldn't be there.
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Well, that's going pretty far.
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Because then you're beginning
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to examine the
consciences of individuals.
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Well, yes, I don't have--
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And I think
that's going too far.
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I mean, unless
that person is freely
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divulging their opinion. Yeah.
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But if it's just
someone divining the--
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even though the
statements are okay
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behind it all they
sort of have a withholding
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of agreement with that
and then they go for them,
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no, we don't believe in that.
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Of course, there
are so many institutions
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that would go so far
as to have loyalty oaths
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and people signing documents
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that I believe this and I
support this and all that.
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Now, there are
certain churches that do that.
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I don't think our
church basically does that.
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There may be a case
here and there, rare case.
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But generally speaking,
we of course select teachers.
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We interview them.
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So you don't think we
need a doctrinal version
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of the conflict of
interest statement?
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Well, that's another
matter, conflict of interest.
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No, I'm just throwing--
I've had to sign conflict--
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That's sort of an internal--
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I've signed conflict
of interest statements
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because as being a
leader in the church-- Yeah.
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They expect you not to
be involved in other things.
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And that's a
reasonable business.
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Yeah, I think,
it's a reasonable,
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I don't think it's so
much a matter of conscience
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as a matter of-- No, not at all.
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I have a business
even in some ways, finance,
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and that you may be wanting
to make money on the side.
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Well, it's like,
wasn't it, Hophni and Phinehas
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the sons if Eli were
selling? Yeah, exactly.
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And we have
cases-- And we have cases--
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Someone out in front
of the temple with no--
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We have cases for teachers
and employees of the church
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have been having some
business or something going on
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that's really in
contradiction to their work.
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So I think we
accept that's reasonable
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and on ideas it
would be the same.
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You can't
simultaneously be advancing
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what the church stands
for and then on your own time,
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advancing
something contrary to that.
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So there's where academic
freedom stops and just--
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what does the Bible say?
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"Double mindedness."
You could have a teacher--
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God's got no time
for double mindedness.
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I have a teacher
who in his classroom
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doesn't say
anything that goes counter
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to the beliefs of the church,
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but then writes books or writes
articles which go counter.
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And then of course
we have a conflict.
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People say, "But where are you?
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I mean, are you this person?
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Are you that person?
You can't be two people."
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Well, it's happened a
few times without no names.
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We see it happens--
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Directed that way
and I think eventually,
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they'll make a
wreck of their faith.
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But I am very confident that the
great majority of our teachers
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are Seventh-day
Adventists and they believe it.
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That's what I think. I
trust our teachers in general.
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I wouldn't say 100% of course.
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Well, we're not just
talking about our teachers,
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we're talking
theoretically about the whole
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spread of academic
freedom as it relates to faith
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and as it relates
to religious liberty
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in other words lack of coercion.
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And I just think that
that's a very valid litmus test
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to apply to faith issues.
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And of course, as
Seventh-day Adventists,
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we know the final test
at the end of time will be
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when a global power
coerces to faith, that's wrong.
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Even if the coercion is
to a correct faith practice,
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the very
coerciveness is what's wrong.
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Of course, it is
always wrong. Absolutely.
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You can't, you know,
human beings have rights.
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And it's very interesting,
didn't Benedict quote
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at the beginning
of his pontificate
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in that Regensburg address,
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he quoted in relation to
Islam he quoted a comment about
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no coercion in matters of faith.
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The Christian church has
accepted that for a longtime.
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So coercion is
a key litmus test.
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Yeah, coercion is
always wrong. Yeah.
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Because the kingdom
is either you accept it,
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"Choose Ye this day
whom you will serve."
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It's not you have to
serve this way. Right.
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So where do you think we
go with academic freedom?
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We only got a few
more minutes left.
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But can we simultaneously be
in favor of academic freedom,
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encouraging it, and
yet reserving a scenario
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where sort of this
far and no further.
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Well, the problem is
always where is the line,
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the red line so to
speak? Where is that line?
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I believe in academic
freedom but I also believe
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in the freedom of the
church to operate. Yeah.
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And if you have
people that are you hire
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to do the work
that you stand for
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and they're doing
something opposite to it,
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it's very hard to
say that they're really
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teachers that we can
welcome in our setting.
00:10:03.90\00:10:06.57
So I believe as far as possible
00:10:06.60\00:10:09.79
as much academic
freedom as possible.
00:10:09.82\00:10:12.35
But as I pointed
out to begin with,
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I think there is a
kind of a framework
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and after a certain
point, that person is actually
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destroying the
very institution--
00:10:22.48\00:10:24.85
Well, I think it
comes back to integrity.
00:10:24.88\00:10:26.25
That he's trying to
serve. Comes back to integrity.
00:10:26.28\00:10:28.38
And as a Christian where
you're committed to Christ
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and then buying into a
certain church viewpoint,
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you want to carry that on
and be true to yourself, right?
00:10:35.50\00:10:37.84
Yeah, You have to be
true to yourself, of course.
00:10:37.87\00:10:40.05
You have to be honest.
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You have to be open
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but you have to
stand for the institution
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that has selected
you and pays you also
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to present its beliefs.
00:10:50.49\00:10:53.22
I think back to my college days
00:10:53.25\00:10:55.14
I'm reminded of studies
in Christopher Marlowe's
00:10:55.17\00:10:59.01
"Tragical History
of Doctor Faustus."
00:10:59.04\00:11:02.22
That's a most perplexing story
00:11:02.25\00:11:05.10
that's come down
from the Middle Ages
00:11:05.13\00:11:06.60
and repeated in music
and art by other figures.
00:11:06.63\00:11:11.63
But it wrote us the
story of an academic
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that was drawn on so
voraciously toward knowledge
00:11:14.95\00:11:18.97
but in the end he was willing
to essentially sell his soul
00:11:19.00\00:11:23.14
to the devil for more knowledge.
00:11:23.17\00:11:26.05
There are some who think
that academics on occasion
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are ready to do that
even in the modern world
00:11:29.40\00:11:31.56
to gain if not
knowledge then a line of inquiry
00:11:31.59\00:11:36.66
that might be
otherwise forbidden to them.
00:11:36.69\00:11:39.17
But we know, that in
the Christian economy
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as well as in the civil field,
all things are not allowed.
00:11:42.86\00:11:47.37
There is a matter
of responsibility.
00:11:47.40\00:11:49.61
There is a matter
of reverence toward God
00:11:49.64\00:11:52.33
and respect for
what He has laid out.
00:11:52.36\00:11:54.83
For example, it would not
be proper for someone that
00:11:54.86\00:11:58.10
buys into the
biblical record of creation
00:11:58.13\00:12:00.91
to then fancifully project some
totally false view of creation
00:12:00.94\00:12:06.54
and an evolution
creation synthesis and say,
00:12:06.57\00:12:10.53
"Well, may be this was so.
00:12:10.56\00:12:13.03
May be it could be so
for a secular scientist."
00:12:13.06\00:12:15.99
But such an academic freedom
00:12:16.02\00:12:18.42
is not appropriate
to someone trusting God.
00:12:18.45\00:12:21.01
We need to keep our freedom
within God's constraints.
00:12:21.04\00:12:26.83
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:26.86\00:12:30.04