Participants: Bert Beach, Lincoln Steed
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000200A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:25 This is the program that brings you 00:26 up-to-date news, views, 00:28 discussion on religious liberty events 00:30 in the United States and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Dr. Bert Beach. 00:40 An icon of religious liberty 00:41 for the Seventh-day Adventist church. 00:43 I know as a young fellow, I had a chance 00:46 because you worked closely with my father. 00:48 We used to debate about many, many things over the years. 00:51 And I've always enjoyed discussing things with you. 00:53 And so we're gonna share this discussion today. 00:55 By the way, I'd like to say 00:57 your dad was one of the greatest promoters 00:59 that I knew in our church. 01:01 And a great man in temperance leadership. 01:04 He pretty much could sell anything to anyone 01:06 and he was always selling the truth. 01:11 Ideas are very important 01:12 and the Seventh-day Adventist church has embodied 01:15 some leading edge theological concepts 01:18 that I think are needed for this time. 01:20 You know, a last call to Protestantism 01:23 really is what it is. 01:26 But this issue of the freedom to say 01:28 what you want is very important to Adventist. 01:30 You know, they were cast out of the Protestant churches, 01:32 weren't they in the 1800s? Yeah. 01:34 Because their views were not acceptable. 01:36 Well, many of the leaders, including Ellen G. White 01:40 were members of other churches, 01:42 Methodists maybe and other denominations 01:45 and they were considered to be a little bit, 01:47 I suppose, troublemakers. 01:49 Because they kind of--they said, you're confusing the people 01:52 with kind of new beliefs or emphasizing the second coming, 01:55 the soon coming of Christ and so forth. 01:57 So they were actually disfellowshipped. Yes. 02:00 I don't see or read in early Adventism 02:03 that people particularly, 02:05 consciously wanted to leave those churches 02:07 and form a new church. 02:09 They were sort of pushed out 02:11 and then they saw the need to organize a church. 02:14 Well, that very often happens if you want to be a reformer. 02:18 Martin Luther is the most living example of that. 02:22 He didn't want to create a new church-- 02:23 He thought he could reform his church. 02:25 He wanted to change the church the way it was, 02:27 you know, and so on. 02:29 And soon he found that that was impossible. 02:31 So of course, he left and you have Protestantism, 02:35 Lutheranism, and the Reformation. 02:38 Well, remember there was a papal bull 02:39 that pretty much anathematized him 02:41 and cast him to spiritual darkness, 02:43 out of darkness and lowered the threat, 02:47 of perhaps physical harm. 02:49 But then he took that bull and called a bunch of students-- 02:52 And burned it. 02:55 He was a bit of a rebel rouser. 02:57 A very great man in many ways. 02:59 But coming closer to our day or right into our day 03:03 because I can remember not that long ago, 03:06 few decades ago, a Catholic theologian, 03:09 Dr. Hans Kung, I think was his name, 03:12 ran foul of the Catholic hierarchy 03:15 because of some of his ideas which curiously 03:18 post-Vatican II were acceptable generally. And-- 03:22 I met him by the way. Did you? 03:24 At the II Vatican council. Okay. 03:25 He's born exactly the same year I am born, 1928. 03:30 And he was born in Switzerland where I was born in Switzerland 03:33 and we spoke the German Swiss dialect together. 03:36 Well, you know, he was unacceptable at the time. 03:39 In our era he wouldn't seem too radical 03:42 but he-- the ire of the church, 03:43 his church leadership descended on him. 03:45 And it raises the question, what within a church, 03:49 within a church educational institution for example, 03:53 what leeway is there for academic freedom 03:56 or the right to think differently 03:59 or to question and to discuss in an open dynamic way 04:03 differences that you might have or questions that you have 04:06 on some hard and fast issues? 04:08 Well, I would say that I'm not--first of all, 04:11 I don't consider myself to be 04:12 a great expert on academic freedom. 04:15 It's a very big subject in itself. 04:18 I've dealt more with religious liberty 04:20 in general terms of the church vis-a-vis society 04:24 and so forth and vis-a-vis government 04:27 and so forth in other countries, especially. 04:30 But academic freedom, of course, 04:33 is something very precious in many ways. 04:35 I mean, I have PhD from the University of Paris. 04:39 Well, if you have a PhD from University of Paris, 04:42 you are, of course, an academic 04:45 and Paris is not exactly a church affiliated university. 04:50 If anything it's a university that is 04:53 from what--probably agnostic in general terms 04:56 though that's not it's teaching as such 04:59 but there-- they-- 05:00 I think religion is not something that has priority. 05:04 Were the university students pretty much 05:06 to the front of the Paris Commune, 05:09 the Communist uprising there in Paris-- 05:11 Yeah, exactly 05:12 but anyhow-- so if you are an academic person 05:17 teaching in a university level institution or college, 05:21 you expect to be able to redo research 05:25 and to discover new evidence especially, 05:29 in the scientific area and new truths, 05:33 at least what you would consider to be evidence 05:36 that points in a certain direction. 05:38 So it's very difficult to tell a professor 05:41 when he's in an academic institution of that level. 05:44 I'm not talking about in elementary schools 05:47 or academies or high schools. 05:49 But in a college, university level, 05:51 especially university. 05:52 You're expected to discover new things. 05:55 So you have to try to find out. 05:57 Now of course, if you're in a institution 06:00 that is church related or even in our case 06:04 church operated and church owned, 06:08 you have a certain-- there are-- 06:09 I would think a certain framework-- 06:12 Parameters of beliefs-- 06:13 Which affect the professors to operate. 06:16 So really there must be some known negotiables 06:19 that are involved in a church structure and belief. 06:23 I mentioned that kind of framework 06:26 earlier in my statement. 06:29 If a church, let's say, take for example 06:32 the Seventh-day church, 06:33 this is the church that you and I belong to, 06:36 very interested in education, 06:38 has lot of college level, university level institutions 06:43 around the world. 06:44 Obviously, it establishes these institutions 06:48 at the great cost to the membership 06:52 because it wants a certain philosophy, 06:54 a certain Bible based, Christ based understanding of life 07:01 to be somehow presented to the students 07:04 and have its fruition 07:06 in the life of the students and the teachers. 07:10 Now if a teacher goes there and teaches in that institution, 07:14 you would think that he would want to uphold the philosophy, 07:19 the outlook of the institution that has called him to teach. 07:23 And if that teacher believes that 07:27 because he has academic freedom he can teach anything he wants, 07:31 even in total contradiction 07:33 to what the institution stands for-- 07:36 You have more problems, don't you? 07:37 I think he's on very slippery ground. 07:39 Now I believe in academic freedom 07:41 and I would like to give a teacher 07:43 as much freedom as possible to explore, 07:46 to research, to find new discoveries and new truths. 07:50 But there's an element of responsibility 07:52 that comes intrusively. But--exactly-- 07:53 but on the other hand, 07:55 if he is inculcating teachings 07:59 and beliefs to students that are totally undermining, 08:03 undercutting, destroying him 08:06 the very existence of the institution, 08:08 I think that's going too far. 08:10 I don't think academic freedom will cover that 08:13 in his case or her case. 08:15 It might be a female teacher. 08:17 I think the teacher has to uphold the fundamental reasons 08:21 for the existence of the institution. 08:24 He should not be there or she should not be there 08:27 in order to undermine and destroy the institution. 08:31 But what you're saying is borne out 08:33 almost in the daily news because for decades 08:36 now I've noticed in Communist countries, 08:38 even in many Western countries, 08:40 you see state run universities become hotbeds of agitation 08:46 to change the established order, 08:47 whether it's to overthrow communism, 08:49 whether it's to bring socialism into the West. 08:52 And governments all seem to react the same way. 08:55 They pretty much state what you said. 08:56 You know, we're paying the bill. 08:58 These universities are public universities 09:00 to train people to move into the society 09:04 and here we have radical professors 09:06 that are subverting the system. 09:08 On a level of freedom, 09:12 sort of this unrestrained rights of the individual to think 09:15 and to say what they want 09:16 people get hot and bothered about that 09:18 but the logic underlying it is pretty valid, 09:20 what you're saying and particularly 09:22 when you come into a church contex,t where 09:25 it's a voluntary association 09:27 but clearly designed to advance a viewpoint. 09:30 I think there's something very troubling when a professor 09:35 or a teacher is sort of freelancing 09:36 and undercutting the very point of the situation. 09:38 I think you're quite correct. 09:40 I do think that there is a difference to some extent 09:42 between a state run institution which the state 09:46 ideologically tends to be more neutral, you'd hope. 09:52 Church is obviously not ideologically, 09:55 religiously neutral. 09:57 Otherwise it would not establish the institution to begin with. 10:00 So the state I think can have maybe wider liberty. 10:05 Quite a bit. No state is neutral. 10:06 But the sate basically doesn't have great problems 10:11 with academic freedom. I don't think. 10:13 I mean there are in revolutionary situations, 10:17 let's say in the Middle East 10:19 or so on where the university is tied 10:21 to changing the whole country. 10:23 Well, then in that situation you may have a different ball game. 10:26 But in an established country 10:28 where the political system is well established, 10:32 the constitution is there, the laws are there, 10:35 the institution has to follow the laws 10:37 and you expect the teachers to follow the laws. 10:40 But ideologically there is--must be 10:43 a tremendous amount of freedom and liberty. 10:46 Well, I can remember Kent State of the United States 10:49 in the Vietnam War 10:51 and that was precisely the point. 10:53 The universities in retrospect, 10:56 the students had a point calling a hold to militarism. 11:01 But the very aims of the state were being challenged 11:03 by the student body and at that time 11:06 there were very socialist viewpoints. Yeah. 11:09 So even in the West 11:11 the state is not neutral on academic freedom. 11:14 It was to encourage individuality 11:17 but there is a point that you're not to go over. 11:20 And within the church 11:22 I think that point is much more narrowly prescribed. 11:24 Well, exactly, I think that's the point I was trying to make. 11:26 The state has wider boundaries when it comes to ideology 11:32 except in a revolutionary situation 11:35 where the whole system of the state is being changed. Yeah. 11:39 But the church can't-- shouldn't compel. 11:42 It's just that if someone is not going 11:44 to advance the church viewpoint they're no longer- 11:47 they should no longer associate themselves with that. 11:51 Well, you'll think that-- at least I'd have taught, 11:53 if I was teaching and I've been a teacher 11:55 in various levels in the church, including college level. 12:02 If I felt that I was totally opposed 12:05 to the fundamental beliefs of the church on certain points 12:08 I don't think I would feel 12:10 that I would be in my place teaching there. 12:13 I mean there are plenty of other institutions 12:14 you can teach where you wouldn't have that problem. 12:17 And so I would feel that I would be duty-bound, 12:22 conscience-bound to go elsewhere. 12:25 But something's changed in recent years. 12:27 I think not just academics, even members of a given church 12:32 no longer feel that 12:35 after they're no longer a fellow traveler. 12:40 Rather than going traveling that other path 12:42 they think they'll either travel parallel within the system 12:45 or pull the system to their viewpoint. 12:47 It's--it's-- I don't know what it is 12:49 but something's changed in the last 20, 30 years 12:52 in regard that you just spoke to. 12:54 People don't have a sense of integrity 12:58 that if they're out of sync 12:59 then they would go elsewhere themselves. 13:00 They feel that they're obligated to-- 13:03 for the system to change to them. 13:05 Well, I remember one of our leaders 13:08 in one of our institutions-- I don't need to mention. 13:10 I think he was vice president of one of our great institutions 13:14 and he felt uncomfortable anymore there. 13:18 He just packed up and left as a Christian gentleman--Incredible. 13:22 Highly respected and I respect him. 13:24 He felt this was not where I have to-- 13:27 You have to admire that. You have to admire that. 13:28 We'll be back after a short break 13:30 to continue a potentially very fraught topic 13:35 of academic freedom, particularly within the church. 13:39 We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17