Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the
program that brings you
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up-to-date news, views,
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discussion on
religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Dr. Bert Beach.
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An icon of religious liberty
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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I know as a young
fellow, I had a chance
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because you worked
closely with my father.
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We used to debate about many,
many things over the years.
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And I've always enjoyed
discussing things with you.
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And so we're gonna
share this discussion today.
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By the way, I'd like to say
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your dad was one of
the greatest promoters
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that I knew in our church.
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And a great man in
temperance leadership.
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He pretty much could
sell anything to anyone
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and he was always
selling the truth.
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Ideas are very important
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and the Seventh-day
Adventist church has embodied
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some leading edge
theological concepts
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that I think are
needed for this time.
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You know, a last
call to Protestantism
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really is what it is.
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But this issue of
the freedom to say
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what you want is very
important to Adventist.
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You know, they were cast
out of the Protestant churches,
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weren't they in the 1800s? Yeah.
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Because their views
were not acceptable.
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Well, many of the leaders,
including Ellen G. White
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were members of other churches,
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Methodists maybe
and other denominations
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and they were
considered to be a little bit,
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I suppose, troublemakers.
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Because they kind of--they said,
you're confusing the people
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with kind of new beliefs or
emphasizing the second coming,
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the soon coming of
Christ and so forth.
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So they were actually
disfellowshipped. Yes.
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I don't see or
read in early Adventism
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that people particularly,
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consciously wanted
to leave those churches
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and form a new church.
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They were sort of pushed out
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and then they saw the
need to organize a church.
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Well, that very often happens
if you want to be a reformer.
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Martin Luther is the
most living example of that.
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He didn't want to
create a new church--
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He thought he
could reform his church.
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He wanted to change
the church the way it was,
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you know, and so on.
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And soon he found
that that was impossible.
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So of course, he left
and you have Protestantism,
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Lutheranism,
and the Reformation.
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Well, remember
there was a papal bull
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that pretty much
anathematized him
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and cast him to
spiritual darkness,
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out of darkness
and lowered the threat,
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of perhaps physical harm.
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But then he took that bull
and called a bunch of students--
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And burned it.
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He was a bit of a rebel rouser.
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A very great man in many ways.
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But coming closer to our
day or right into our day
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because I can
remember not that long ago,
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few decades ago, a
Catholic theologian,
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Dr. Hans Kung, I
think was his name,
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ran foul of the
Catholic hierarchy
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because of some of
his ideas which curiously
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post-Vatican II were
acceptable generally. And--
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I met him by the way. Did you?
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At the II Vatican council. Okay.
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He's born exactly the
same year I am born, 1928.
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And he was born in Switzerland
where I was born in Switzerland
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and we spoke the
German Swiss dialect together.
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Well, you know, he was
unacceptable at the time.
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In our era he
wouldn't seem too radical
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but he-- the ire of the church,
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his church
leadership descended on him.
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And it raises the
question, what within a church,
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within a church educational
institution for example,
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what leeway is
there for academic freedom
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or the right to
think differently
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or to question and to
discuss in an open dynamic way
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differences that you might
have or questions that you have
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on some hard and fast issues?
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Well, I would say
that I'm not--first of all,
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I don't consider myself to be
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a great expert
on academic freedom.
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It's a very big
subject in itself.
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I've dealt more
with religious liberty
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in general terms of the
church vis-a-vis society
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and so forth and
vis-a-vis government
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and so forth in other
countries, especially.
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But academic freedom, of course,
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is something very
precious in many ways.
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I mean, I have PhD from
the University of Paris.
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Well, if you have a PhD
from University of Paris,
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you are, of course, an academic
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and Paris is not exactly a
church affiliated university.
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If anything it's
a university that is
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from what--probably
agnostic in general terms
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though that's not
it's teaching as such
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but there-- they--
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I think religion is not
something that has priority.
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Were the university
students pretty much
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to the front of
the Paris Commune,
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the Communist
uprising there in Paris--
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Yeah, exactly
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but anyhow-- so if
you are an academic person
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teaching in a university
level institution or college,
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you expect to be
able to redo research
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and to discover new
evidence especially,
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in the scientific
area and new truths,
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at least what you
would consider to be evidence
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that points in a
certain direction.
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So it's very
difficult to tell a professor
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when he's in an academic
institution of that level.
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I'm not talking
about in elementary schools
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or academies or high schools.
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But in a
college, university level,
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especially university.
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You're expected to
discover new things.
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So you have to try to find out.
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Now of course, if
you're in a institution
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that is church
related or even in our case
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church operated
and church owned,
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you have a certain-- there are--
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I would think a
certain framework--
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Parameters of beliefs--
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Which affect the
professors to operate.
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So really there must
be some known negotiables
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that are involved in a
church structure and belief.
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I mentioned that
kind of framework
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earlier in my statement.
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If a church, let's
say, take for example
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the Seventh-day church,
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this is the church
that you and I belong to,
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very interested in education,
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has lot of college level,
university level institutions
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around the world.
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Obviously, it
establishes these institutions
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at the great
cost to the membership
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because it wants a
certain philosophy,
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a certain Bible based, Christ
based understanding of life
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to be somehow
presented to the students
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and have its fruition
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in the life of the
students and the teachers.
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Now if a teacher goes there
and teaches in that institution,
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you would think that he would
want to uphold the philosophy,
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the outlook of the institution
that has called him to teach.
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And if that
teacher believes that
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because he has academic freedom
he can teach anything he wants,
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even in total contradiction
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to what the
institution stands for--
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You have more
problems, don't you?
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I think he's on
very slippery ground.
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Now I believe
in academic freedom
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and I would like
to give a teacher
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as much freedom as
possible to explore,
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to research, to find new
discoveries and new truths.
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But there's an
element of responsibility
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that comes
intrusively. But--exactly--
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but on the other hand,
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if he is inculcating teachings
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and beliefs to students
that are totally undermining,
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undercutting, destroying him
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the very existence
of the institution,
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I think that's going too far.
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I don't think academic
freedom will cover that
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in his case or her case.
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It might be a female teacher.
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I think the teacher has to
uphold the fundamental reasons
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for the existence
of the institution.
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He should not be there
or she should not be there
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in order to undermine
and destroy the institution.
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But what you're
saying is borne out
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almost in the daily
news because for decades
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now I've noticed in
Communist countries,
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even in many Western countries,
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you see state run universities
become hotbeds of agitation
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to change the established order,
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whether it's to
overthrow communism,
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whether it's to bring
socialism into the West.
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And governments all
seem to react the same way.
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They pretty much
state what you said.
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You know, we're paying the bill.
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These universities
are public universities
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to train people to
move into the society
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and here we have
radical professors
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that are subverting the system.
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On a level of freedom,
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sort of this unrestrained rights
of the individual to think
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and to say what they want
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people get hot and
bothered about that
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but the logic
underlying it is pretty valid,
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what you're
saying and particularly
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when you come into a
church contex,t where
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it's a voluntary association
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but clearly designed
to advance a viewpoint.
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I think there's something
very troubling when a professor
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or a teacher is
sort of freelancing
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and undercutting the
very point of the situation.
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I think you're quite correct.
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I do think that there is
a difference to some extent
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between a state run
institution which the state
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ideologically tends to
be more neutral, you'd hope.
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Church is
obviously not ideologically,
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religiously neutral.
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Otherwise it would not establish
the institution to begin with.
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So the state I think can
have maybe wider liberty.
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Quite a bit. No
state is neutral.
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But the sate basically
doesn't have great problems
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with academic
freedom. I don't think.
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I mean there are in
revolutionary situations,
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let's say in the Middle East
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or so on where
the university is tied
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to changing the whole country.
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Well, then in that situation you
may have a different ball game.
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But in an established country
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where the political
system is well established,
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the constitution is
there, the laws are there,
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the institution
has to follow the laws
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and you expect the
teachers to follow the laws.
00:10:37.55\00:10:40.83
But
ideologically there is--must be
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a tremendous amount
of freedom and liberty.
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Well, I can remember Kent
State of the United States
00:10:46.74\00:10:49.22
in the Vietnam War
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and that was
precisely the point.
00:10:51.69\00:10:53.20
The universities in retrospect,
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the students had a point
calling a hold to militarism.
00:10:56.90\00:11:01.41
But the very aims of the
state were being challenged
00:11:01.44\00:11:03.75
by the student
body and at that time
00:11:03.78\00:11:06.35
there were very
socialist viewpoints. Yeah.
00:11:06.38\00:11:09.42
So even in the West
00:11:09.45\00:11:11.47
the state is not
neutral on academic freedom.
00:11:11.50\00:11:14.35
It was to
encourage individuality
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but there is a point
that you're not to go over.
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And within the church
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I think that point is
much more narrowly prescribed.
00:11:22.35\00:11:24.50
Well, exactly, I think that's
the point I was trying to make.
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The state has wider boundaries
when it comes to ideology
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except in a
revolutionary situation
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where the whole system of the
state is being changed. Yeah.
00:11:35.36\00:11:39.62
But the church
can't-- shouldn't compel.
00:11:39.65\00:11:42.57
It's just that if
someone is not going
00:11:42.60\00:11:44.41
to advance the church
viewpoint they're no longer-
00:11:44.44\00:11:47.82
they should no longer
associate themselves with that.
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Well, you'll think
that-- at least I'd have taught,
00:11:51.68\00:11:53.12
if I was teaching
and I've been a teacher
00:11:53.15\00:11:55.23
in various levels in the
church, including college level.
00:11:55.26\00:12:02.11
If I felt that I
was totally opposed
00:12:02.14\00:12:05.30
to the fundamental beliefs
of the church on certain points
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I don't think I would feel
00:12:08.99\00:12:10.36
that I would be in
my place teaching there.
00:12:10.39\00:12:13.14
I mean there are
plenty of other institutions
00:12:13.17\00:12:14.83
you can teach where you
wouldn't have that problem.
00:12:14.86\00:12:17.96
And so I would feel
that I would be duty-bound,
00:12:17.99\00:12:22.24
conscience-bound
to go elsewhere.
00:12:22.27\00:12:25.59
But something's
changed in recent years.
00:12:25.62\00:12:27.61
I think not just academics,
even members of a given church
00:12:27.64\00:12:32.55
no longer feel that
00:12:32.58\00:12:35.58
after they're no
longer a fellow traveler.
00:12:35.61\00:12:40.34
Rather than going
traveling that other path
00:12:40.37\00:12:42.65
they think they'll either travel
parallel within the system
00:12:42.68\00:12:45.21
or pull the system
to their viewpoint.
00:12:45.24\00:12:47.80
It's--it's-- I
don't know what it is
00:12:47.83\00:12:49.79
but something's changed
in the last 20, 30 years
00:12:49.82\00:12:52.87
in regard that
you just spoke to.
00:12:52.90\00:12:54.89
People don't have
a sense of integrity
00:12:54.92\00:12:58.05
that if they're out of sync
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then they would go
elsewhere themselves.
00:12:59.48\00:13:00.85
They feel that
they're obligated to--
00:13:00.88\00:13:03.26
for the system
to change to them.
00:13:03.29\00:13:05.73
Well, I remember
one of our leaders
00:13:05.76\00:13:08.24
in one of our institutions--
I don't need to mention.
00:13:08.27\00:13:10.85
I think he was vice president
of one of our great institutions
00:13:10.88\00:13:14.24
and he felt
uncomfortable anymore there.
00:13:14.27\00:13:18.39
He just packed up and left as a
Christian gentleman--Incredible.
00:13:18.42\00:13:22.77
Highly respected
and I respect him.
00:13:22.80\00:13:24.87
He felt this was
not where I have to--
00:13:24.90\00:13:26.99
You have to admire
that. You have to admire that.
00:13:27.02\00:13:28.73
We'll be back
after a short break
00:13:28.76\00:13:30.60
to continue a
potentially very fraught topic
00:13:30.63\00:13:35.96
of academic freedom,
particularly within the church.
00:13:35.99\00:13:39.36
We'll be right back.
00:13:39.39\00:13:41.61