Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bert Beach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000199A
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00:22 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is a program bringing you discussion, news, views, 00:27 and up-to-date information on religious liberty issues, 00:31 around the world and of course beginning in the United States. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:38 And I have a very special guest on the program, Dr. Bert Beach. 00:43 Bert, really, before I say much about you, 00:46 I need to allude to a very recent panic 00:50 in the United States because it was learned 00:52 not too many months ago that an ambassador to Libya 00:57 had been killed in his embassy. 00:59 And, man, the international furore on that 01:02 and the political crises within the US. 01:05 Of course, this was a person killed, but an ambassador, 01:08 an ambassador is something special 01:10 because he represents all that the country embodies. 01:15 And here we have a book-- 01:17 And he was supposed to have diplomatic immunity. Right. 01:19 But it doesn't always work. 01:21 Well, no, they-- many an ambassador 01:23 has lost his head when he brought an unwelcome message. 01:27 But an "Ambassador for Liberty," 01:29 that's what this recent book is titled. 01:32 And it's about you, by you. 01:35 What led you to write this book? 01:39 Well, I've had a long life. 01:42 I've spent many years in leadership. 01:44 I was for 45 years 01:47 on the General Conference Executive Committee. 01:49 This is the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist. 01:51 The Seventh-day Adventist Church. 01:53 And I was involved in leadership, 01:55 in education, and schools, 01:57 and educational director of a division, 01:59 the secretary of the division and so forth. 02:02 And after many years, people kept on saying to me, 02:05 "Bert, you know, you should have 02:06 somebody write your biography 02:07 or you should write your own biography. 02:09 In fact, it might be better even." 02:12 And somebody told me in fact, 02:15 one Steve Chavez who was helpful to me in many ways, 02:20 getting my act together said to me, 02:22 "You know, Bert, you need to write the book yourself. 02:26 Nobody else can do it." 02:28 And so I finally decided I would do it. 02:32 So I wrote the book. 02:33 It was published by the "Review and Herald" recently. 02:36 And, I think, it's selling reasonably well. 02:38 I get lot of letters from old friends 02:40 from college days and other times 02:42 who find their name in the book. 02:44 And so they are very appreciative about it. 02:47 Well, you know, I was looking through it again 02:50 just a few minutes ago. 02:51 I read it when it first came out. 02:53 But there are some incredible photographs here. 02:55 There's one with you, with John Paul II, 02:58 Pope, John Paul II, one with Benedict XVI, 03:04 another one with Archbishop Robert Runcie, 03:06 Archbishop of Canterbury, with the President of Iceland, 03:11 the President of Albania, and on and on. 03:15 You've rubbed shoulders and shaken hands 03:18 with many of the I don't know about the rich, 03:21 but the famous and the influential, 03:23 particularly in Religious Liberty circles. 03:25 Yeah. Well, I tell you and one reason 03:27 why I was happy to do this 03:29 was to show how God led in many instances in my life, 03:34 I've things that I wasn't planning to do at all. 03:37 I've suddenly found myself 03:38 principal of our school in Italy. 03:41 I had never even thought of going to Italy 03:43 ever in my life until the day they asked me 03:46 by action of the Division Committee 03:48 and others to go there and so forth. 03:50 So certain things have happened 03:52 and I felt that the hand of God was there present. 03:56 And, therefore, it was a pleasure for me 03:59 and, in fact, an honor to be able to talk about it. 04:01 So how did you get into Religious Liberty? 04:04 Well, I was called back to Europe after the war. 04:07 I went back to the US. 04:09 My parents, you know, were missionaries. 04:10 My father was a leader in the church in Europe. 04:13 And during the war, we stayed in Europe. 04:16 We were in Switzerland, cut off, couldn't get out. 04:20 So we stayed there until '46 after the war. 04:22 Then I went to Pacific Union College in California. 04:25 And then I went to Stanford for some further work. 04:28 Then I was called back to Europe and worked over there. 04:34 Then went back to the US, 04:37 became Chairman of the History Department 04:38 at Columbia Union College for-- 04:40 History is a good connection to Religious Liberty-- 04:42 Yes, good connection. That was my-- 04:43 I used be a history major-- 04:44 I've done my doctorate in history-- 04:46 And it's invaluable, particularly in the US 04:47 understanding the whole constitutional basis. 04:49 Because history affects everything. Absolutely. 04:52 And so therefore, if you are informed about history, 04:56 your life gets information 04:58 about most everything it happens. 05:01 Of course, with lot of details in science which you don't know, 05:03 but you know that science is important 05:06 because history tells you that-- 05:07 History ties life together through the ages. 05:09 So I was involved-- 05:11 So from history then how did that 05:13 lead to Religious Liberty for you? 05:14 Then I ended up in Paris 05:17 to get my doctorate at University of Paris. 05:19 And the church told me, "Now half time, 05:22 work on your doctorate, half time, 05:24 work with Dr. Nussbaum's evangelist team." 05:28 Dr. Nussbaum was the most famous Religious Liberty leader 05:31 we had in the church at that time. 05:33 Back in the 1940s, '50s, '60s, 05:37 he was a well-known figure. 05:38 He had the gift of meeting with statesmen 05:42 and getting help in solving Religious Liberty problems. 05:45 So he gave me little bit of a touch 05:49 of a taste of Religious Liberty, 05:50 introduced me to Mrs. Roosevelt down at the-- 05:54 Eleanor Roosevelt. 05:55 Down in Paris when she was visiting 05:56 because he was well acquainted with her. 05:58 And she was the Chairman of The Human Rights Commission, 06:01 the first one of the UN, when they'd started it, 06:04 working past the Universal Declaration 06:07 of Human Rights and so-- 06:08 It was in 1948, wasn't it? 06:10 It gave me a forte-- 06:11 The Universal Declaration, wasn't it 1948? 06:14 That came out in 1948. 06:16 Yes, right after I graduated from college from PUC. 06:19 And it's worth mentioning to our viewers 06:21 that in the United States, you know, 06:22 the constitution is a point of reference. 06:25 But internationally, that human rights declaration 06:27 is a landmark document. 06:29 It's a landmark decision. 06:30 In fact, I recently was telling people, 06:33 if the UN had to pass that declaration today, 06:37 it would not succeed. 06:38 Not in its form, I mean, it could pass a declaration-- 06:41 Highly qualified-- 06:42 Because there's one thing in that declaration 06:44 that it would definitely, very difficult to pass today 06:47 and that is the right to change your religion. 06:50 Absolutely. 06:51 Because the Muslim countries basically, 06:53 at least those who'd have 06:55 Islamist influence in government, 06:58 do not accept the idea of changing religion, 07:01 at least not from a Muslim to change religion, 07:03 may be a Christian can become a Muslim. 07:05 They probably accept that from that viewpoint. 07:08 So it's a very important declaration. 07:09 Hindus and Buddhists-- 07:11 And Mrs. Roosevelt was very important. 07:12 And even Hindu and Buddhist countries 07:13 are becoming very resistant to their populations 07:16 changing to other religion. 07:17 Well, lot of people think religion is a private thing 07:20 and you should not to make it public 07:22 and keep it to yourself and so forth. 07:23 Well, people think that, but I think 07:25 more and more countries see religion as a national identity. 07:28 And so when another religion comes, 07:30 it's diluting their national identity. So there's-- 07:32 And that's been, of course, the case very often in the past. 07:34 If you were Russian, you had to be orthodox. 07:37 If you were Italian, you had to be catholic. 07:39 If you were not, there was something wrong with you. 07:41 You were maybe a, like a-- 07:44 Need to continue it. 07:46 I'm an Australian and I could say if you're an Australian, 07:48 you need to be atheist. 07:50 Well. Or a cynic. 07:52 In France-- But it is true. 07:53 In France, that would be the-- in France, 07:55 it was acceptable after the French Revolution 07:57 to be agnostic for the men. 08:00 The women, it was all right for them to be in the church. 08:03 There's a whole program there, 08:04 why women are more attracted to religion? 08:06 Okay, Dr. Nussbaum gave you 08:10 really a taste of meeting some of these people. 08:12 But how did you actually then move 08:14 into a position in Religious Liberty? 08:15 Well, then I was in the division office 08:18 in England as education director. 08:20 And more and more I became interested in Religious Liberty 08:23 because of the problems we had in Poland. 08:25 And so I would often go to Poland to deal with issues. 08:28 Now this was before solidarity though? 08:30 That was before the solidarity. 08:32 And of course I was even there when solidarity was at work. 08:35 And then I would visit also Czechoslovakia 08:38 because the division office 08:40 for Czechoslovakia was in Bern, Switzerland. 08:43 But for a certain period, the government would not allow 08:45 anybody from Bern to go there. 08:47 But I could come from England and visit there 08:50 because I would be a tourist for them. 08:53 But when I went to Poland, of course, 08:54 I was on the list of people 08:55 that the Polish government knew and no doubt-- 08:59 Back then did you feel that 09:00 when you went into those countries, 09:02 you were being watched all the time? 09:05 I didn't feel I was being watched 09:07 but I knew I was being watched 09:10 because that was the system. 09:12 But I must say this that all the years 09:14 I was in Poland especially, 09:16 and I was over there probably 40, 50 times over the years, 09:19 I was always well treated by the government. 09:22 And they-- I met with the highest officials 09:24 and they-- of course, 09:26 they had a special reason, 09:27 they kind of liked the Seventh-day Adventist Church 09:29 as a counterweight to some extent 09:32 to the very powerful Roman Catholic Church 09:35 that was the powerful force, 09:39 the strongest force outside of the government. 09:42 Well, tell me something 09:44 or I'd be interested in your comment. 09:46 I've noticed over the years, the regimes come and go, 09:49 and communism came before I was born. 09:52 But it's essentially gone as a global force. 09:56 But communism as many other non-democratic systems 10:01 did allow freedom of religion at least in theory, right? 10:05 Well, in theory, yes. 10:06 But in practice it was very difficult. 10:08 In practice, it's difficult 10:09 because it was antithetical to their state philosophy. 10:11 As long as you had certain doctrines 10:14 and you had a certain worship in your church 10:17 and you believe maybe in a God or something like that, 10:21 it didn't bother them too much, 10:22 as long as you and your activities in society 10:26 were supportive of their government's program. 10:28 And so that's where 10:30 the Religious Liberty rubber touched the road. 10:32 And then became a problem when the government's policies 10:35 were against what you felt was ethical and moral. 10:40 Well, what I'm trying to get at 10:42 is it's easy to pay lip service to Religious Liberty. 10:47 I hardly think there's a country around the world 10:49 that openly and blatantly will say, 10:52 "You cannot believe in a spiritual faith and, 10:56 you know, we'll not allow that." 10:58 They all say, "You can do it," 10:59 but restrict it in many practical daily works. 11:02 If you look at practically all constitutions 11:04 in the world have some clause 11:07 guaranteeing some form of Religious Liberty. Right. 11:09 But in practice, it doesn't always work that way. 11:12 So the practice is very important. Absolutely. 11:13 Don't just take people at their word in Religious Liberty, 11:17 see what really happens. 11:18 So you went into Poland many, many times. 11:22 But still so, when did you really transfer 11:26 into Religious Liberty work though? 11:28 Really transferred is when I was called 11:30 to the General Conference in 1980 11:32 as Director of Public Affairs 11:34 in Religious Liberty for the World Church. 11:36 So until then-- They just recognized that-- 11:37 I was the secretary. 11:39 My first job was Secretary 11:41 of the Northern Europe West Africa Division. 11:43 Then I was education director for many years. 11:46 And then I gave that up when I became secretary 11:50 but I still kept public affairs and Religious Liberty but-- 11:53 So you felt it as a responsibility. 11:54 I had that department but it was a part-time job. 11:57 My main job was secretary-- 11:59 So you really weren't progressively moving into it-- 12:00 Then when I came to the General Conference in 1980, 12:03 it became my full-time job. 12:05 And I also had the General Conference 12:07 move in the direction of having a council 12:10 dealing with interchurch relations 12:12 'cause I felt that Religious Liberty 12:15 and relations with other denominations was tied together. 12:19 Because if your Religious Liberty was poor, 12:22 then probably they had problems. 12:23 If others have problems in Religious Liberty, 12:25 then you will soon have problems also. 12:27 When did you establish this council? 12:28 What year approximately was that? 12:30 That was around 1980. 12:31 Oh. Late '80. 12:33 Okay. 12:34 And so I became the secretary of that council. 12:37 Now the Seventh-day Adventist Church had problems 12:39 and you and I don't need to get into it. 12:43 I think, was it in the '50s or '60s 12:45 with these questions on doctrine thing 12:47 when they got into dialog with other evangelic-- 12:51 Well, that was-- the book came out, 12:53 dealing with-- we had a dialog, 12:56 it was kind of a semi-official I suppose. 12:59 It was two or three of our people. 13:01 Yeah, no, but that was-- 13:03 Had conversations with evangelicals. 13:05 The point I want to make is we were trying to reconcile 13:10 understandings between churches that preceded it 13:13 that I think was misbegotten but there was 13:16 and a need for communication between churches 13:20 on a diplomatic level to borrow from your book. 13:24 We'll be back after a short break. 13:26 Stay with us. 13:27 This is going to be an interesting discussion 13:29 with Dr. Bert Beach. |
Revised 2014-12-17