Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is a program bringing
you discussion, news, views,
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty issues,
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around the world and of course
beginning in the United States.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And I have a very special guest
on the program, Dr. Bert Beach.
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Bert, really, before
I say much about you,
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I need to allude
to a very recent panic
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in the United States
because it was learned
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not too many months ago
that an ambassador to Libya
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had been killed in his embassy.
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And, man, the
international furore on that
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and the political
crises within the US.
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Of course, this was a person
killed, but an ambassador,
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an ambassador is
something special
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because he represents all
that the country embodies.
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And here we have a book--
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And he was supposed to
have diplomatic immunity. Right.
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But it doesn't always work.
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Well, no, they--
many an ambassador
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has lost his head when he
brought an unwelcome message.
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But an "Ambassador for Liberty,"
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that's what this
recent book is titled.
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And it's about you, by you.
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What led you to write this book?
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Well, I've had a long life.
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I've spent many
years in leadership.
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I was for 45 years
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on the General
Conference Executive Committee.
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This is the General Conference
of Seventh-day Adventist.
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The Seventh-day
Adventist Church.
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And I was
involved in leadership,
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in education, and schools,
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and educational
director of a division,
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the secretary of the
division and so forth.
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And after many years,
people kept on saying to me,
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"Bert, you know, you should have
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somebody write your biography
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or you should
write your own biography.
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In fact, it
might be better even."
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And somebody told me in fact,
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one Steve Chavez who was
helpful to me in many ways,
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getting my act
together said to me,
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"You know, Bert, you need
to write the book yourself.
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Nobody else can do it."
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And so I finally
decided I would do it.
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So I wrote the book.
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It was published by the
"Review and Herald" recently.
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And, I think, it's
selling reasonably well.
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I get lot of
letters from old friends
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from college
days and other times
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who find their name in the book.
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And so they are very
appreciative about it.
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Well, you know, I was
looking through it again
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just a few minutes ago.
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I read it when
it first came out.
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But there are some
incredible photographs here.
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There's one with
you, with John Paul II,
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Pope, John Paul II,
one with Benedict XVI,
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another one with
Archbishop Robert Runcie,
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Archbishop of Canterbury,
with the President of Iceland,
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the President of
Albania, and on and on.
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You've rubbed
shoulders and shaken hands
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with many of the I
don't know about the rich,
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but the famous
and the influential,
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particularly in
Religious Liberty circles.
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Yeah. Well, I
tell you and one reason
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why I was happy to do this
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was to show how God led
in many instances in my life,
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I've things that I
wasn't planning to do at all.
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I've suddenly found myself
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principal of
our school in Italy.
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I had never even
thought of going to Italy
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ever in my life
until the day they asked me
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by action of the
Division Committee
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and others to go
there and so forth.
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So certain things have happened
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and I felt that the hand
of God was there present.
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And, therefore, it
was a pleasure for me
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and, in fact, an honor
to be able to talk about it.
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So how did you get
into Religious Liberty?
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Well, I was called back
to Europe after the war.
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I went back to the US.
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My parents, you
know, were missionaries.
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My father was a leader
in the church in Europe.
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And during the war,
we stayed in Europe.
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We were in Switzerland,
cut off, couldn't get out.
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So we stayed there
until '46 after the war.
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Then I went to Pacific
Union College in California.
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And then I went to
Stanford for some further work.
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Then I was called back to
Europe and worked over there.
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Then went back to the US,
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became Chairman of
the History Department
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at Columbia Union College for--
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History is a good connection
to Religious Liberty--
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Yes, good
connection. That was my--
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I used be a history major--
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I've done my
doctorate in history--
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And it's invaluable,
particularly in the US
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understanding the
whole constitutional basis.
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Because history
affects everything. Absolutely.
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And so therefore, if you
are informed about history,
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your life gets information
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about most
everything it happens.
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Of course, with lot of details
in science which you don't know,
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but you know that
science is important
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because history tells you that--
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History ties life
together through the ages.
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So I was involved--
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So from history
then how did that
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lead to
Religious Liberty for you?
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Then I ended up in Paris
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to get my doctorate
at University of Paris.
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And the church
told me, "Now half time,
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work on your
doctorate, half time,
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work with Dr.
Nussbaum's evangelist team."
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Dr. Nussbaum was the most
famous Religious Liberty leader
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we had in the
church at that time.
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Back in the 1940s, '50s, '60s,
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he was a well-known figure.
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He had the gift of
meeting with statesmen
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and getting help in solving
Religious Liberty problems.
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So he gave me
little bit of a touch
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of a taste of Religious Liberty,
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introduced me to Mrs.
Roosevelt down at the--
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Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Down in Paris
when she was visiting
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because he was well
acquainted with her.
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And she was the Chairman of
The Human Rights Commission,
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the first one of the
UN, when they'd started it,
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working past the
Universal Declaration
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of Human Rights and so--
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It was in 1948, wasn't it?
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It gave me a forte--
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The Universal
Declaration, wasn't it 1948?
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That came out in 1948.
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Yes, right after I
graduated from college from PUC.
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And it's worth
mentioning to our viewers
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that in the
United States, you know,
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the constitution is
a point of reference.
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But internationally,
that human rights declaration
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is a landmark document.
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It's a landmark decision.
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In fact, I
recently was telling people,
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if the UN had to pass
that declaration today,
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it would not succeed.
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Not in its form, I mean,
it could pass a declaration--
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Highly qualified--
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Because there's one
thing in that declaration
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that it would definitely,
very difficult to pass today
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and that is the right
to change your religion.
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Absolutely.
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Because the Muslim
countries basically,
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at least those who'd have
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Islamist
influence in government,
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do not accept the
idea of changing religion,
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at least not from a
Muslim to change religion,
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may be a Christian
can become a Muslim.
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They probably accept
that from that viewpoint.
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So it's a very
important declaration.
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Hindus and Buddhists--
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And Mrs. Roosevelt
was very important.
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And even Hindu
and Buddhist countries
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are becoming very
resistant to their populations
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changing to other religion.
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Well, lot of people think
religion is a private thing
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and you should
not to make it public
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and keep it to
yourself and so forth.
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Well, people
think that, but I think
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more and more countries see
religion as a national identity.
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And so when
another religion comes,
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it's diluting their
national identity. So there's--
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And that's been, of course,
the case very often in the past.
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If you were Russian,
you had to be orthodox.
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If you were Italian,
you had to be catholic.
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If you were not, there
was something wrong with you.
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You were maybe a, like a--
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Need to continue it.
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I'm an Australian and I could
say if you're an Australian,
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you need to be atheist.
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Well. Or a cynic.
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In France-- But it is true.
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In France, that
would be the-- in France,
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it was acceptable
after the French Revolution
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to be agnostic for the men.
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The women, it was all right
for them to be in the church.
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There's a whole program there,
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why women are more
attracted to religion?
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Okay, Dr. Nussbaum gave you
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really a taste of
meeting some of these people.
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But how did you
actually then move
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into a position
in Religious Liberty?
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Well, then I was
in the division office
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in England as
education director.
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And more and more I became
interested in Religious Liberty
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because of the
problems we had in Poland.
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And so I would often go to
Poland to deal with issues.
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Now this was
before solidarity though?
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That was before the solidarity.
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And of course I was even there
when solidarity was at work.
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And then I would
visit also Czechoslovakia
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because the division office
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for Czechoslovakia
was in Bern, Switzerland.
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But for a certain period,
the government would not allow
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anybody from Bern to go there.
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But I could come from
England and visit there
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because I would be
a tourist for them.
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But when I went
to Poland, of course,
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I was on the list of people
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that the Polish
government knew and no doubt--
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Back then did you feel that
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when you went
into those countries,
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you were being
watched all the time?
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I didn't feel I
was being watched
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but I knew I was being watched
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because that was the system.
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But I must say
this that all the years
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I was in Poland especially,
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and I was over there probably
40, 50 times over the years,
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I was always well
treated by the government.
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And they-- I met
with the highest officials
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and they-- of course,
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they had a special reason,
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they kind of liked the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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as a
counterweight to some extent
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to the very powerful
Roman Catholic Church
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that was the powerful force,
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the strongest force
outside of the government.
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Well, tell me something
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or I'd be
interested in your comment.
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I've noticed over the
years, the regimes come and go,
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and communism
came before I was born.
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But it's essentially
gone as a global force.
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But communism as many
other non-democratic systems
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did allow freedom of religion
at least in theory, right?
00:10:01.27\00:10:05.04
Well, in theory, yes.
00:10:05.07\00:10:06.44
But in practice it
was very difficult.
00:10:06.47\00:10:08.13
In practice, it's difficult
00:10:08.16\00:10:09.53
because it was antithetical
to their state philosophy.
00:10:09.56\00:10:11.10
As long as you
had certain doctrines
00:10:11.13\00:10:14.47
and you had a certain
worship in your church
00:10:14.50\00:10:17.13
and you believe maybe in a
God or something like that,
00:10:17.16\00:10:21.09
it didn't bother them too much,
00:10:21.12\00:10:22.79
as long as you and
your activities in society
00:10:22.82\00:10:26.53
were supportive of
their government's program.
00:10:26.56\00:10:28.76
And so that's where
00:10:28.79\00:10:30.16
the Religious Liberty
rubber touched the road.
00:10:30.19\00:10:32.56
And then became a problem
when the government's policies
00:10:32.59\00:10:35.47
were against what you
felt was ethical and moral.
00:10:35.50\00:10:40.36
Well, what I'm trying to get at
00:10:40.39\00:10:42.94
is it's easy to pay lip
service to Religious Liberty.
00:10:42.97\00:10:47.54
I hardly think there's
a country around the world
00:10:47.57\00:10:49.68
that openly and
blatantly will say,
00:10:49.71\00:10:52.35
"You cannot believe
in a spiritual faith and,
00:10:52.38\00:10:56.33
you know, we'll not allow that."
00:10:56.36\00:10:58.09
They all say, "You can do it,"
00:10:58.12\00:10:59.49
but restrict it in
many practical daily works.
00:10:59.52\00:11:02.21
If you look at
practically all constitutions
00:11:02.24\00:11:04.77
in the world have some clause
00:11:04.80\00:11:07.18
guaranteeing some form
of Religious Liberty. Right.
00:11:07.21\00:11:09.82
But in practice, it
doesn't always work that way.
00:11:09.85\00:11:12.18
So the practice is
very important. Absolutely.
00:11:12.21\00:11:13.85
Don't just take people at
their word in Religious Liberty,
00:11:13.88\00:11:16.98
see what really happens.
00:11:17.01\00:11:18.54
So you went into
Poland many, many times.
00:11:18.57\00:11:22.22
But still so, when
did you really transfer
00:11:22.25\00:11:26.03
into Religious
Liberty work though?
00:11:26.06\00:11:28.73
Really transferred
is when I was called
00:11:28.76\00:11:30.45
to the General
Conference in 1980
00:11:30.48\00:11:32.75
as Director of Public Affairs
00:11:32.78\00:11:34.15
in Religious Liberty
for the World Church.
00:11:34.18\00:11:36.20
So until then-- They
just recognized that--
00:11:36.23\00:11:37.92
I was the secretary.
00:11:37.95\00:11:39.70
My first job was Secretary
00:11:39.73\00:11:41.14
of the Northern
Europe West Africa Division.
00:11:41.17\00:11:43.56
Then I was education
director for many years.
00:11:43.59\00:11:46.83
And then I gave that
up when I became secretary
00:11:46.86\00:11:49.99
but I still kept public affairs
and Religious Liberty but--
00:11:50.02\00:11:53.28
So you felt it
as a responsibility.
00:11:53.31\00:11:54.85
I had that department
but it was a part-time job.
00:11:54.88\00:11:57.71
My main job was secretary--
00:11:57.74\00:11:59.11
So you really weren't
progressively moving into it--
00:11:59.14\00:12:00.93
Then when I came to the
General Conference in 1980,
00:12:00.96\00:12:03.14
it became my full-time job.
00:12:03.17\00:12:05.45
And I also had
the General Conference
00:12:05.48\00:12:07.41
move in the
direction of having a council
00:12:07.44\00:12:10.66
dealing with
interchurch relations
00:12:10.69\00:12:12.72
'cause I felt
that Religious Liberty
00:12:12.75\00:12:15.18
and relations with other
denominations was tied together.
00:12:15.21\00:12:19.60
Because if your
Religious Liberty was poor,
00:12:19.63\00:12:22.20
then probably they had problems.
00:12:22.23\00:12:23.86
If others have
problems in Religious Liberty,
00:12:23.89\00:12:25.73
then you will soon
have problems also.
00:12:25.76\00:12:27.13
When did you
establish this council?
00:12:27.16\00:12:28.92
What year
approximately was that?
00:12:28.95\00:12:30.52
That was around 1980.
00:12:30.55\00:12:31.92
Oh. Late '80.
00:12:31.95\00:12:33.32
Okay.
00:12:33.35\00:12:34.72
And so I became the
secretary of that council.
00:12:34.75\00:12:37.30
Now the Seventh-day
Adventist Church had problems
00:12:37.33\00:12:39.90
and you and I don't
need to get into it.
00:12:39.93\00:12:43.04
I think, was it
in the '50s or '60s
00:12:43.07\00:12:45.50
with these
questions on doctrine thing
00:12:45.53\00:12:47.95
when they got into
dialog with other evangelic--
00:12:47.98\00:12:51.06
Well, that was--
the book came out,
00:12:51.09\00:12:53.83
dealing with-- we had a dialog,
00:12:53.86\00:12:56.36
it was kind of a
semi-official I suppose.
00:12:56.39\00:12:59.59
It was two or
three of our people.
00:12:59.62\00:13:01.88
Yeah, no, but that was--
00:13:01.91\00:13:03.28
Had conversations
with evangelicals.
00:13:03.31\00:13:05.13
The point I want to make
is we were trying to reconcile
00:13:05.16\00:13:10.04
understandings between
churches that preceded it
00:13:10.07\00:13:13.40
that I think was
misbegotten but there was
00:13:13.43\00:13:16.79
and a need for
communication between churches
00:13:16.82\00:13:20.40
on a diplomatic level
to borrow from your book.
00:13:20.43\00:13:24.01
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:13:24.04\00:13:26.45
Stay with us.
00:13:26.48\00:13:27.85
This is going to be
an interesting discussion
00:13:27.88\00:13:29.25
with Dr. Bert Beach.
00:13:29.28\00:13:31.63