Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000198B
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00:06 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider".
00:07 Before the break, 00:09 we were restraining ourselves from coming to blows over 00:12 discussing debates within the church. 00:15 Now we would--that worked up, but these are the ones, 00:18 you know, we spoke about conflicts 00:21 between Islam and Christianity that can get hard at times, 00:23 but when you really look at church history, 00:25 the most severe fights will be within a church. Right. 00:29 Even the Roman Catholic Church itself. 00:31 It reserved its real venom in its time of power 00:34 for the heretic within. Correct. 00:37 So it can get very emotional quickly. 00:39 And at the moment the Protestant churches in North America, 00:43 they are arguing of within the church of marrying-- 00:49 gay marriages, ordaining gay priests. 00:52 What are some of the other things? 00:54 That's a good starter, isn't it? 00:58 I'll enlarge on that story 00:59 that I told you about a phone call from someone that said 01:02 that their membership was being threatened 01:05 if they persisted in this youth organization. 01:07 I checked further and I found a local church-- 01:14 headquarters not just the church pastor 01:17 had issued a similar edict 01:18 threatening members if they persisted. 01:21 I went further and I found that the next rung up, 01:24 had actually taken an action 01:26 against this independent organization, 01:30 well, it wasn't an organization. 01:31 It was an independent grouping of church members, 01:34 not doing anything wrong 01:35 but it seemed that they didn't like 01:37 that the structure was outside their control. 01:40 Now what's an individual to do? 01:43 Should a church member 01:45 cease to associate with other good Adventists 01:48 in an environment that had been called wrong by the organization 01:54 or should they continue to meet. 01:55 And then how should they relate 01:58 when if its made to remove their membership. 02:00 I think that something like that in essence 02:03 would have to be come down to the individual. 02:06 In other words whatever religious body it is, 02:08 if you've got your central structure 02:10 that we could look at as your mainline body 02:13 and then you've got supporting institutions related to that. 02:17 And, you know, we could-- putting in practical terms 02:19 you could refer to the Catholic church with the different nuns 02:23 and their work in charity relief work 02:25 if they're supportive of contraceptive views 02:29 to try and diminish the number of children that are born, 02:32 that are malnourished, and hungry, in poverty 02:34 contrary to the church's teachings 02:36 or you could take it within the Adventist church 02:39 relating to supporting ministries 02:40 that may have some views that are little bit divergent 02:43 or different from the main body, across the way going to imply. 02:46 And in essence I think that the individual church member 02:50 would need to take the time to wait out and say, 02:52 "Do I really have the conviction 02:54 that the supporting institution-- 02:56 well, I'm not contrary to the main body of the church, 02:58 but at least divergent on the few things, 03:00 is that more important to me to be aligned up 03:02 and associated with them than with the main body?" 03:05 It's a good commonsense-- 03:07 Therefore face the possibility 03:09 of losing my membership with the main body, 03:11 but still supporting the supporting ministry. 03:13 And writing to early Adventist Ellen White, 03:16 pioneer as well as a visionary did say, 03:20 she didn't spell out why, 03:21 but for some of these sort of reasons she said, 03:23 "Some people may have to make their way to the kingdom 03:26 outside the organization." 03:28 It's most regrettable when it happens, 03:30 but the issue is not narrowly speaking church membership. 03:34 If you're talking about member of any Christian church, 03:37 the issue should be salvation, moral integrity. Correct. 03:41 And even if I thought I was being horribly wrong, 03:46 I don't think it would be right 03:47 or consistent with my Christian commitment 03:49 to try to drag my organization down to prove my point. Correct. 03:54 And, you know, I think back to Martin Luther, 03:56 we bring out the Catholic Church a lot 03:58 because your studies are being there. 03:59 But, you know, my reading of Martin Luther 04:01 is he didn't necessarily intend to leave the church immediately. 04:06 He saw himself as straightening-- 04:08 Certainly to help the church to reform. 04:10 Helping it a few times. 04:11 He got pushed till the end 04:14 that was the only moral conclusion for him. 04:17 This entity would not see the point that he was raising. 04:22 So, you know, he essentially became an enemy of the church, 04:25 but I think he took a moral cause to go his own way 04:29 and in essence found the Lutheran church. 04:33 In this dynamic field, the very important thing 04:36 to recognize the historical differences. 04:39 For Luther, it was the issue of eternal salvation. 04:43 How is one saved, whether it's by grace 04:45 apart from the works that the church was teaching-- 04:47 Oh, the doctrinal point was very definite. 04:49 And so that's why eventually 04:51 even though it was not his intention 04:52 to begin with to separate or break from Rome, 04:54 eventually that's what happened. 04:56 In the modern context, I think that church members 04:59 across the board for whatever denomination they belong to 05:02 need to really take time to figure out this issue 05:05 that I'm struggling with or that I'm involved in, 05:09 that I think that the church leadership is doing wrong. 05:10 Is it regarding core doctrinal teachings 05:12 where the church leadership is divergent from biblical truth 05:16 or is it simply an issue that as we pointed out before. 05:19 There can be a lot of societal issues 05:21 that if the leadership decides a certain way on those 05:24 and the church membership says well, I'm part of this body. 05:27 I don't really adopt that complete view of the leadership, 05:30 but it's not really an issue of salvation. 05:32 And if that's the case, 05:34 one would need to really think about how important it is 05:37 to oppose the leadership and try to pull out. Right. 05:40 And I have no respect. 05:42 I've said this many context in my work. 05:46 I've worked for the church all my life, well, most of my life. 05:49 I had a few other minor jobs, 05:51 but essentially on graduation from university, 05:53 I worked for the church ever since. 05:55 And I have no respect for somebody 05:58 who to get their own personal way 06:01 is willing to risk the bigger picture 06:04 and the integrity of the church 06:06 even the operation of the church, 06:08 someone that will say in my work context 06:11 to force me to do something as willing to drag down 06:14 any number of programs make them fail 06:17 to make me look bad to win their point. 06:20 And I would like to thank that someone with Christian integrity 06:23 wouldn't want to do that anyhow. Correct. 06:26 So that dynamic you need to keep in mind and again constantly, 06:31 you know, we get letters and so on from people 06:32 that they got no justice within the church. 06:36 Well, you know, justice of that personal nature 06:39 is very personally determined and very often you find 06:43 that such a person is 100% concerned about self 06:48 not to uphold the integrity of the church. 06:51 You know, I think that taking it 06:52 may be to looking at from another angle 06:55 perhaps that helps to portray 06:58 what I feel anyway is the manner, 07:01 the way that God would want us as Christians 07:04 to relate to these kinds of issues. 07:06 You know, when we look at go back in history 07:08 and we look at individuals that were reformers 07:10 Wycliffe, Hus, Luther himself, and others, 07:14 we find that especially in the earlier period 07:17 with Wycliffe and Hus, those were individuals 07:19 that they recognized definitive of wrongs 07:22 within the organization, 07:23 but their way of approaching that was not too lambaste, 07:26 not to argue for their civil rights and so forth. 07:29 They were ones that as they were concerned 07:32 more about living the life as a Christian 07:35 and not demonstrating a false Christian character 07:38 or mannerism and meekly upholding truth. 07:41 In fact I differ in saying-- 07:44 I've read many of their stories 07:45 and they seemed unnaturally collusive of their own security. 07:48 Correct. So they're not self-centered 07:50 and I really believed that's the key to most of life 07:53 but certainly when you're talking about debates 07:55 and differences within the church. 07:58 If somebody has the correct attitude of selflessness, 08:01 the Christianity calls for. 08:03 It almost means the thing 08:04 will hardly get started to begin with, 08:06 but they will certainly moderate these conflicts. Correct. 08:10 And you know like for example-- this is not for example, 08:13 but it reminds me that within the Adventist church, 08:16 there's currently a debate of the ordination of women 08:19 which hardly makes the Adventist church 08:21 different from the others. 08:23 This sort of thing is flooding through every church 08:25 even the Roman Catholic church, 08:26 has had a little flirtation with this sort of an argument. 08:30 But I've seen of late that those that are pushing it with-- 08:34 whether or not I agree with its immaterial, 08:36 but just my analysis is, 08:37 there are many of them seemingly prepared 08:40 to destroy the structure to win their point. 08:43 And I cannot have respect 08:45 for that sort of dogmatic approach. Correct. 08:49 For myself without actually taking a view 08:52 either in favor of or against 08:54 looking more at the aspect of religious freedom 08:57 in that dynamic within the church, 08:59 I think that, that we need individuals 09:01 that are members of-- in this case that, 09:03 that you brought out of the Adventist church, 09:05 they need to recognize what the Bible teaches 09:07 regarding the organization 09:09 and structure of the authority of the church. 09:11 The moment that is undermined and challenged 09:13 and destroyed even if the cause is right, 09:16 it is going to-- in essence it undermines 09:19 the authority throughout the church. So-- 09:21 And it's integrity. The flip side of it is. 09:23 Yes, the flip side of it is looking at it 09:25 from the individual that thinks that their position is right 09:28 and they're advocating it within the church. 09:30 If the organized and in current leadership does not adopt that, 09:35 the proper approach of the Christian believers 09:38 is simply to say, "I lay it in God's hands, 09:40 I will pray about it. 09:42 And it may be a period of time 09:43 before that view can actually be modified 09:46 and changed within the leadership 09:48 and once that is done-- 09:49 Yeah, when you're laying at a very Christian 09:52 selfless approach to resolving conflict. 09:54 Sure and I think that the key focus then 09:57 is for the individual believer regardless of their denomination 10:01 to be identified with Christ 10:03 and in essence Christ to live in them in such a way 10:06 that they're willing to let the Holy Spirit 10:08 resolve the issues that they see are of prime importance 10:12 that they themselves cannot resolve through advocacy, 10:15 through speaking, and thus maintain unity 10:18 and love within the church. 10:21 As a Christian, I'm quite content to use the life 10:24 and ministry of Jesus as a model from our behavior. 10:28 It strikes me that when Jesus was on trial 10:31 for His very life before the church leaders 10:34 in advance to being sent before the civil leaders 10:36 which is a whole interesting comment 10:38 on church state relations. 10:41 But when He was on trial before those leaders, 10:44 the high priest said something to Him 10:46 and Jesus answered in a way 10:48 that a soldier or guard standing nearby took exception to it 10:52 and He slapped Jesus and he said, 10:53 "How dare you speak to the high priest that way?" 10:56 And very tellingly Jesus said, 10:58 "I didn't know he was the high priest." 11:01 And He basically apologized. 11:03 I really think that while we have those inevitable clashes 11:07 of personality within a church 11:09 and real difference that we need to abstain from critiquing 11:14 at a non-Christian even in human way. 11:18 Those that differ from us, there is room for difference. 11:23 And clearly as our guest on this program has pointed out 11:27 there is a real need for the underlying Christian 11:30 consideration of a converted life 11:33 that is put into practice 11:34 not just reaching out to other people to tell them, 11:37 but reaching back to our fellow believers 11:38 and demonstrating Christian charity. 11:43 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17