Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider".
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Before the break,
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we were restraining ourselves
from coming to blows over
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discussing
debates within the church.
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Now we would--that worked
up, but these are the ones,
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you know, we
spoke about conflicts
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between Islam and Christianity
that can get hard at times,
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but when you really
look at church history,
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the most severe fights
will be within a church. Right.
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Even the Roman
Catholic Church itself.
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It reserved its real
venom in its time of power
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for the heretic within. Correct.
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So it can get
very emotional quickly.
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And at the moment the Protestant
churches in North America,
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they are arguing of
within the church of marrying--
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gay marriages,
ordaining gay priests.
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What are some of
the other things?
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That's a good starter, isn't it?
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I'll enlarge on that story
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that I told you about a phone
call from someone that said
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that their
membership was being threatened
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if they persisted in
this youth organization.
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I checked further and
I found a local church--
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headquarters not
just the church pastor
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had issued a similar edict
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threatening
members if they persisted.
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I went further and I
found that the next rung up,
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had actually taken an action
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against this
independent organization,
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well, it wasn't an organization.
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It was an independent
grouping of church members,
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not doing anything wrong
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but it seemed
that they didn't like
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that the structure
was outside their control.
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Now what's an individual to do?
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Should a church member
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cease to associate
with other good Adventists
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in an environment that had been
called wrong by the organization
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or should they continue to meet.
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And then how should they relate
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when if its made to
remove their membership.
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I think that
something like that in essence
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would have to be come
down to the individual.
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In other words
whatever religious body it is,
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if you've got
your central structure
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that we could look
at as your mainline body
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and then you've got supporting
institutions related to that.
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And, you know, we could--
putting in practical terms
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you could refer to the Catholic
church with the different nuns
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and their work in
charity relief work
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if they're supportive
of contraceptive views
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to try and diminish the number
of children that are born,
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that are malnourished,
and hungry, in poverty
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contrary to the
church's teachings
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or you could take it
within the Adventist church
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relating to
supporting ministries
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that may have some views
that are little bit divergent
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or different from the main body,
across the way going to imply.
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And in essence I think that
the individual church member
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would need to take the
time to wait out and say,
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"Do I really have the conviction
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that the
supporting institution--
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well, I'm not contrary to
the main body of the church,
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but at least
divergent on the few things,
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is that more
important to me to be aligned up
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and associated with them
than with the main body?"
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It's a good commonsense--
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Therefore face the possibility
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of losing my
membership with the main body,
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but still supporting
the supporting ministry.
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And writing to early
Adventist Ellen White,
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pioneer as well as
a visionary did say,
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she didn't spell out why,
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but for some of these
sort of reasons she said,
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"Some people may have to
make their way to the kingdom
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outside the organization."
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It's most
regrettable when it happens,
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but the issue is not narrowly
speaking church membership.
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If you're talking about
member of any Christian church,
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the issue should be salvation,
moral integrity. Correct.
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And even if I thought I
was being horribly wrong,
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I don't think it would be right
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or consistent with
my Christian commitment
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to try to drag my organization
down to prove my point. Correct.
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And, you know, I
think back to Martin Luther,
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we bring out the
Catholic Church a lot
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because your
studies are being there.
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But, you know, my
reading of Martin Luther
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is he didn't necessarily intend
to leave the church immediately.
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He saw himself
as straightening--
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Certainly to help
the church to reform.
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Helping it a few times.
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He got pushed till the end
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that was the only
moral conclusion for him.
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This entity would not see
the point that he was raising.
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So, you know, he essentially
became an enemy of the church,
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but I think he took a
moral cause to go his own way
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and in essence
found the Lutheran church.
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In this dynamic field,
the very important thing
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to recognize the
historical differences.
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For Luther, it was the
issue of eternal salvation.
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How is one saved,
whether it's by grace
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apart from the works
that the church was teaching--
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Oh, the doctrinal
point was very definite.
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And so that's why eventually
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even though it
was not his intention
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to begin with to
separate or break from Rome,
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eventually that's what happened.
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In the modern context, I
think that church members
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across the board for whatever
denomination they belong to
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need to really take
time to figure out this issue
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that I'm struggling
with or that I'm involved in,
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that I think that the church
leadership is doing wrong.
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Is it regarding
core doctrinal teachings
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where the church leadership
is divergent from biblical truth
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or is it simply an issue
that as we pointed out before.
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There can be a
lot of societal issues
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that if the leadership
decides a certain way on those
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and the church membership says
well, I'm part of this body.
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I don't really adopt that
complete view of the leadership,
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but it's not really
an issue of salvation.
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And if that's the case,
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one would need to really
think about how important it is
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to oppose the leadership
and try to pull out. Right.
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And I have no respect.
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I've said this
many context in my work.
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I've worked for the church all
my life, well, most of my life.
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I had a few other minor jobs,
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but essentially on
graduation from university,
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I worked for the
church ever since.
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And I have no
respect for somebody
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who to get
their own personal way
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is willing to
risk the bigger picture
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and the integrity of the church
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even the
operation of the church,
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someone that will
say in my work context
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to force me to do something
as willing to drag down
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any number of
programs make them fail
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to make me look
bad to win their point.
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And I would like to thank that
someone with Christian integrity
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wouldn't want to do
that anyhow. Correct.
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So that dynamic you need to keep
in mind and again constantly,
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you know, we get
letters and so on from people
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that they got no
justice within the church.
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Well, you know,
justice of that personal nature
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is very personally determined
and very often you find
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that such a person is
100% concerned about self
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not to uphold the
integrity of the church.
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You know, I think that taking it
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may be to looking
at from another angle
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perhaps that helps to portray
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what I feel
anyway is the manner,
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the way that God
would want us as Christians
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to relate to
these kinds of issues.
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You know, when we
look at go back in history
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and we look at
individuals that were reformers
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Wycliffe, Hus,
Luther himself, and others,
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we find that
especially in the earlier period
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with Wycliffe and
Hus, those were individuals
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that they
recognized definitive of wrongs
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within the organization,
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but their way of approaching
that was not too lambaste,
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not to argue for their
civil rights and so forth.
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They were ones that
as they were concerned
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more about living
the life as a Christian
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and not demonstrating a
false Christian character
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or mannerism and
meekly upholding truth.
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In fact I differ in saying--
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I've read many of their stories
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and they seemed unnaturally
collusive of their own security.
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Correct. So
they're not self-centered
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and I really believed
that's the key to most of life
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but certainly when
you're talking about debates
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and differences
within the church.
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If somebody has the correct
attitude of selflessness,
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the Christianity calls for.
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It almost means the thing
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will hardly get
started to begin with,
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but they will certainly moderate
these conflicts. Correct.
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And you know like for example--
this is not for example,
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but it reminds me that
within the Adventist church,
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there's currently a debate
of the ordination of women
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which hardly makes
the Adventist church
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different from the others.
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This sort of thing is
flooding through every church
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even the Roman Catholic church,
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has had a little flirtation
with this sort of an argument.
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But I've seen of late that
those that are pushing it with--
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whether or not I
agree with its immaterial,
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but just my analysis is,
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there are many of
them seemingly prepared
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to destroy the
structure to win their point.
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And I cannot have respect
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for that sort of
dogmatic approach. Correct.
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For myself without
actually taking a view
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either in favor of or against
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looking more at the
aspect of religious freedom
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in that dynamic
within the church,
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I think that, that
we need individuals
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that are members
of-- in this case that,
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that you brought out
of the Adventist church,
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they need to
recognize what the Bible teaches
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regarding the organization
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and structure of the
authority of the church.
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The moment that is
undermined and challenged
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and destroyed even
if the cause is right,
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it is going to-- in
essence it undermines
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the authority
throughout the church. So--
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And it's integrity.
The flip side of it is.
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Yes, the flip side
of it is looking at it
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from the individual that thinks
that their position is right
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and they're
advocating it within the church.
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If the organized and in current
leadership does not adopt that,
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the proper approach of
the Christian believers
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is simply to say, "I
lay it in God's hands,
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I will pray about it.
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And it may be a period of time
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before that view
can actually be modified
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and changed
within the leadership
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and once that is done--
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Yeah, when you're
laying at a very Christian
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selfless approach
to resolving conflict.
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Sure and I think
that the key focus then
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is for the individual believer
regardless of their denomination
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to be identified with Christ
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and in essence Christ to
live in them in such a way
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that they're willing
to let the Holy Spirit
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resolve the issues that
they see are of prime importance
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that they themselves
cannot resolve through advocacy,
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through speaking,
and thus maintain unity
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and love within the church.
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As a Christian, I'm
quite content to use the life
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and ministry of Jesus as
a model from our behavior.
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It strikes me that
when Jesus was on trial
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for His very life
before the church leaders
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in advance to being
sent before the civil leaders
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which is a whole
interesting comment
00:10:36.90\00:10:38.96
on church state relations.
00:10:38.99\00:10:41.22
But when He was on
trial before those leaders,
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the high priest
said something to Him
00:10:44.59\00:10:46.35
and Jesus answered in a way
00:10:46.38\00:10:48.49
that a soldier or guard standing
nearby took exception to it
00:10:48.52\00:10:52.23
and He slapped
Jesus and he said,
00:10:52.26\00:10:53.63
"How dare you speak to
the high priest that way?"
00:10:53.66\00:10:56.83
And very tellingly Jesus said,
00:10:56.86\00:10:58.61
"I didn't know he
was the high priest."
00:10:58.64\00:11:01.01
And He basically apologized.
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I really think that while we
have those inevitable clashes
00:11:03.92\00:11:07.79
of personality within a church
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and real difference that we
need to abstain from critiquing
00:11:09.95\00:11:14.47
at a
non-Christian even in human way.
00:11:14.50\00:11:18.44
Those that differ from us,
there is room for difference.
00:11:18.47\00:11:23.15
And clearly as our guest on
this program has pointed out
00:11:23.18\00:11:27.08
there is a real need
for the underlying Christian
00:11:27.11\00:11:30.24
consideration
of a converted life
00:11:30.27\00:11:33.39
that is put into practice
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not just reaching out to
other people to tell them,
00:11:34.82\00:11:37.06
but reaching back
to our fellow believers
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and demonstrating
Christian charity.
00:11:38.96\00:11:41.52
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:43.48\00:11:46.13