Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000198A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is a program where we discuss 00:27 issues that will be of interest to you 00:29 from a religious liberty perspective, 00:31 there's news, views, analysis. 00:34 And each week I have a guest 00:36 that can help me get to the nitty-gritty 00:38 on some of these very important issues. 00:41 And Ed Cook-- Dr. Ed Cook, 00:44 well-versed on church-state issues. 00:47 I want to bring up something to you. 00:48 You know, there's-- 00:50 there were many and varied religious liberty events. 00:52 You can pick up any newspapers. 00:54 We've sometimes done on this program 00:56 with one of the co-hosts 00:58 that I had long time ago, three times I can remember. 01:00 We opened the day's newspaper and one, two, three, 01:04 I think four times, within the one paper, 01:06 there was something relevant to religious liberty. 01:08 But there's a type of communication 01:10 I get by letter, email, sometimes they phone me up 01:14 and people are stirred to their-- 01:17 to their core over some great injustice within the church 01:21 with their rights are being restricted that, 01:24 that their viewpoint is being shut down. 01:27 And I say, "But, you know, 01:28 this is a religious liberty issue. 01:30 My religious freedom is being restricted." 01:33 And most times I have to tell them, 01:35 "Well, this is not right. 01:36 It doesn't sound fair, 01:38 but it's not a religious liberty question." Correct. 01:40 What do you have to think about that? 01:41 Um, you know, I think that from a Christian perspective, 01:45 obviously we always want to go back and looking at scripture 01:49 and find out what the Bible teaches us on a host of topics. 01:53 And it's very interesting 01:55 that the aspect of freedom of conscience is something 01:58 that the Bible does address. 02:00 It's--the Greek term is syneidesis, 02:02 the term used for conscience 02:03 and it's used numerous times in the New Testament. 02:06 In the Old Testament, the term is not used. 02:08 It's actually in the Hebrew mind. 02:10 They never really referred 02:11 to the conscience of the individual. 02:13 They referred to the heart. 02:14 The heart was the combination of the emotions, 02:17 the intellect, the will, the memory, 02:19 all of that combined referred to as the heart. 02:22 I haven't--I haven't had this stuff told to me 02:23 since I was in college. Thank you. 02:26 In the New Testament-- It's like a flashback. Yeah. 02:28 In the New Testament, 02:30 it comes from a Greek perspective, 02:31 a Greek worldview. 02:33 The Jews through the-- through the diaspora, 02:35 they had integrated into Greek and Roman society 02:38 and maintained their own identity as well. 02:40 But Paul writing from that perspective 02:42 then uses the term syneidesis 02:44 there with a Greek term referring to conscience. 02:46 And the idea that he portrays 02:48 without deciding all of the biblical text in his writings, 02:51 but in essence, what he is talking about 02:53 is that the conscience is, 02:55 you know, in Acts 23:1, he says, 02:56 "I have lived in all good conscience 02:58 before God unto this day." 03:00 So the idea that he helps us understand 03:02 is that our conscience should be in relationship to God first. 03:05 It is something that should help us 03:07 to discern between good and evil, 03:09 and it is something that should help 03:11 mold our actions as far as our daily living. 03:13 Now putting that in the context of religious freedom 03:16 within the church, okay? 03:17 Do you have the right to say 03:20 and do anything and if you're restricted is that 03:23 a true restriction of your freedom 03:25 Christian or civil? Correct. 03:27 Within the civil, within the-- excuse me, 03:29 within the sphere of the church, 03:31 what the New Testament brings out 03:33 is that the moment one case converted 03:35 and transitions into the church becomes a member of the church. 03:38 One is doing that voluntarily. 03:40 It's a response to the Holy Spirit. 03:42 So at that point, one is uniting with those 03:45 that are fellow believers in that capacity. 03:48 At that point, one finds that there is a-- 03:50 if one could use that term, 03:53 there is a limited amount of free exercise 03:57 or free expression of the individual 03:59 because in the Book of Revelation, 04:01 Paul--excuse me, John is talking about the warning. 04:04 He said he is giving to the church 04:06 that they should not have in their midst, 04:08 those that were basically-- 04:10 that symbolic term is referring to those that are of Jezebel. 04:13 You know, the followers of Jezebel 04:15 that lead the children of God astray. 04:16 So-- This is a good point. 04:18 But you're coming at it from a Biblical point of view 04:20 and using the same terminology, 04:21 free association voluntary. Correct. 04:24 And from a legal point of view, that's how it is. 04:27 Your liberties are not being restricted 04:29 because you have freely associated. Correct. 04:33 And if you find it unsatisfactory, 04:35 you can freely live. Correct. 04:37 There's not a compulsion there within-- 04:39 even though there maybe an insistence on a church 04:45 behavior in church organization 04:47 that you're incompatible with. 04:48 But the side of the dark edges, 04:51 you can't be forced into that. Correct. 04:53 And people forget, don't they? 04:54 You know, in my book that I-- what I deal with this Roman-- 04:58 Roman Catholicism hegemony and religious freedom. 05:02 There is a section where I developed 05:03 the idea of conscience 05:05 from a New Testament perspective in great detail. 05:07 But in essence, the summary that we come to 05:09 is that scripture does help us to understand 05:11 that the moment that we unite with-- 05:13 with any Christian body 05:15 whether it's Roman Catholic, Baptist, 05:17 Seventh-day Adventist, Lutheran, etcetera. 05:19 We should have taken the time to study 05:21 their core values and beliefs 05:23 and consent voluntarily to be baptized 05:26 to join that union or that, that association of believers. 05:29 Now having stated that there are times along the way 05:32 as each church body will face the new developments in society. 05:37 How will the church leadership relate to, 05:40 you know, it could be issues of today, 05:42 the homosexuality, abortion, and down the line. 05:45 So the believer that is a member of that body 05:48 needs to take the time to engage in dialogue, 05:51 engage in friendly debate within the church confines, 05:55 and basically be willing to ultimately respect 05:58 the direction of leadership is going to provide it. 06:01 I will say provide it that one can see 06:03 that there is not a clear contradiction of scripture. 06:06 For example, there are some churches today 06:08 that they will advocate homosexual unions. 06:11 Completely contrary to 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 06:14 where Paul condemns that. 06:15 So as long as it's not an outright 06:18 direct contradiction of scripture, 06:20 one would need to recognize 06:21 and respect the authority of the church 06:24 and its leadership. I agree with that. 06:25 Of course, those that see scripture 06:27 differently wouldn't phrase it that way. 06:30 And it's worth remembering, 06:31 little early when you were talking about Paul and his views 06:34 and his understanding of 06:39 integrity of the individual. 06:40 Remember, he tackled Peter front on. Yes. 06:43 Even says that I told him off 06:45 in front of everyone his position was wrong. 06:47 So I don't think you can get from Paul 06:50 in from the New Testament 06:52 that we should be ciphers of whatever system and keep quiet, 06:55 never speak our piece, but as far as having a position 06:59 and we share it with our fellow believers, 07:02 and if they don't accept it, 07:03 then we can't say cry foul. Correct. 07:06 But you-- And certainly I would say that 07:07 one church member should not adopt 07:10 the view of being able to say, 07:11 you know, the recognized leadership-- 07:13 they've adopted this position, 07:15 I'm in disagreement with it 07:17 and therefore my civil rights are being undermined or-- 07:20 that the legal dimension doesn't enter it there. 07:22 It's a false dynamic. Yeah. 07:23 People seem to think so, 07:24 but you gave two keys that seldom taken into account. 07:29 When you're talking about the Christian Church 07:31 which is our dominant model in North America and Australia 07:36 where I'm from in the western world. 07:40 There will be less trouble if people were truly converted 07:43 and you can have whole sermons on that, 07:45 but at the very least that should be 07:47 a wholehearted embrace of the concepts 07:50 and of the emotional commitment to the values 07:54 that are expressed in that church 07:56 in the holy writings. Correct. 07:58 Not enough of that goes on. 07:59 People really have their own agenda, 08:01 their own willful ways. 08:03 Then they should be acknowledged. 08:04 And you mentioned this, an understanding of what 08:06 that church stands for. Exactly. 08:08 You're gonna have a contradiction. 08:09 And I know sometimes this even happens 08:11 in Seventh-day Adventist Church. 08:13 People have a nice social contact with someone. 08:15 They think, "I want to be part of that church." 08:17 And the pastor with good intensions 08:20 but poor forethought baptizes them. 08:23 And then a little bit later in Sabbath School Class, 08:25 they discover this church says, 08:27 it believes this and this and this, 08:28 I don't like that. Exactly. 08:30 And then they object to it 08:31 and they think that their objection 08:33 should carry some weight. 08:34 They've joined a group to believe something 08:35 and they're out of sync with it. Correct. 08:37 And here is another thing I think that add 08:39 another dimension to this that is very important. 08:42 Coming back to what I was talking about regarding 08:44 the Biblical explanation of conscience, syneidesis 08:48 and how Paul as well as John explained it. 08:51 In Revelation Chapter 3, 08:52 John goes through and talks about the aspect. 08:55 He says that those that are of the Nicolaitans, 08:57 you know, you allow them to come, 08:58 in essence perverting the gospel, 09:01 perverting the church, and doctrine 09:03 and teaching and he says, 09:04 "They should not be allowed." 09:06 Now understanding that in the modern context, 09:09 I believe that there are many Christians 09:11 that they adopt a concept of religious freedom 09:14 that basically they associate with civil rights 09:17 and they try to take those civil rights into the church. 09:19 And so what they will do is they will say, 09:21 for example, if I believe that homosexuality is not wrong, 09:24 my church is speaking against it, 09:26 I should have the right to come into my church. 09:28 I should have the right to remain a member of the church 09:30 and I should have the right to say 09:32 that what they're doing is wrong 09:33 and they should actually be more open 09:35 and allow religious freedom to homosexuals 09:38 to join the join the church, etcetera. 09:40 And that's-- That's a new way of expressing it. 09:43 It's a thoroughly misdirected understanding of what-- 09:45 what your personal rights and freedoms entail. Correct. 09:49 And they're applying what-- 09:50 it's the reasonable model outside the church, 09:51 but within the church structure, it's just inappropriate. 09:54 It's not that it's wrong, 09:55 it's just not the venue, is it? Correct. 09:58 And let me add this as well, 10:00 kind of just shifting it a little bit 10:02 from perspectives of other faith groups. 10:05 Roman Catholics for this reason in the document, 10:07 Dignitatis Humanae foresaw some of these developments. 10:10 "The Dignity of Man," which is an underlying document 10:12 for Vatican II's rethinking of religious freedom. Correct. 10:16 And what they did is they recognize 10:17 that the church must retain its identity, 10:22 in essence, its authority in the transcendental sphere 10:25 and not in the civil sphere. 10:26 And so in essence, that's why they're opening 10:28 first three statements of the document. 10:30 And in my book, I outlined this and flush it out a bit more, 10:33 but in essence, the church is saying 10:35 in the first three statements of Dignitatis Humanae, 10:37 we recognize that the Catholic Church 10:39 is still the soul depository of-- 10:41 depository of truth. 10:43 And for that reason, we separate 10:45 the transcendental sphere from the civil sphere. 10:48 In the civil sphere, the church is saying, 10:50 "We recognize the right of the individual as a civil right 10:54 to have immunity from corrosion and to pursue truth 10:57 and finding it to embrace it. 10:59 So in essence, the church is by allowing religious freedom 11:02 in the civil sphere, it is not denying its own self identity. 11:05 And I think that most religious groups 11:07 would need to adopt maybe not the same dynamic, 11:10 but something similar in the sense of saying, 11:12 "We recognize that there are certain civil rights 11:14 that are existing in society, 11:16 but within the church or within the religion Islam, 11:18 etcetera to maintain our identity as a religious body." 11:21 We can't go and simply say, "Our religion means nothing." 11:25 You've outlined it very well. 11:26 And, of course, that's the Roman Catholic doctrine 11:28 which in this regard is reasonable. 11:30 But, you know, we're not-- 11:32 we're not advancing their views wholeheartedly. Sure. 11:38 I'm just sharing-- 11:39 Yeah, that's the lecture. Yeah. 11:41 Now I'll give you the quiz. 11:43 Real world, you could be Solomon. 11:46 This is based on a real world conversation 11:50 that I had with someone they called me up. 11:53 And at their church, we won't say 11:54 what denomination it was. 11:57 You could deduce it. 11:59 They called up and they said that they had, 12:04 had some involvement with a non-church-- 12:09 I've got to mind my words carefully. 12:10 They were involved with a youth program 12:14 that was not organized by that church, 12:15 but was only run, and organized, 12:20 and attended by fellow members of that same church. 12:24 The church pastor said that anybody 12:27 that belonged to that organization 12:30 or had anything to do with it, 12:32 they would remove them from any church office 12:35 and if they persisted from membership in the church-- 12:40 that's a rather strange sort of restriction of religious liberty 12:45 and even hazarding membership in the church for someone 12:48 who doesn't see, and probably it's not out of harmony 12:51 with what the church holds. 12:53 Where does the rights of the individual 12:57 figure versus the church is right 13:00 and where is religious liberty in all of this? 13:03 You know, I think that the central element 13:07 to take into consideration to answer that, 13:10 is that all depends on the church governance, 13:12 how they're structured. 13:14 For example, there were many individuals 13:16 that there was an outcry 13:18 when the theologian Leonardo Boff, 13:21 Catholic in Zellwood, 13:23 that was teaching liberation theology. 13:25 The Catholic Church actually silenced him. 13:27 In essence, what it meant 13:29 is that they've considered his writings 13:31 and his teachings to be 13:32 questionable contrary to their faith. 13:34 And so they-- when they silenced him, 13:36 that meant that he can no longer speak publicly about it. 13:39 He can no longer teach about it. 13:40 He can no longer write about it 13:42 for at least for a period of time 13:43 until the Magisterium had time to review his teaching. 13:45 Now, of course, they really couldn't silence him. 13:48 There would just be the penalty of excommunication 13:51 or separation from the membership, 13:52 but he legally couldn't, really be silenced-- 13:56 I mean, in the literal way, I'll put it that way. 13:58 As long as he respected the authority of the church, 14:00 then he would respect their judgment 14:02 and he would no longer speak or teach on it. Yeah. 14:04 Now what he ended up opting to do in his case 14:06 is he just withdrew from the society. 14:08 He had been in Zellwood, He was drew from there. 14:10 Okay, I can see our time is run by. 14:12 We'll be back after a short break 14:14 to continue this very interesting discussion 14:17 of differences within a church. |
Revised 2014-12-17