Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is a
program where we discuss
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issues that will
be of interest to you
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from a religious
liberty perspective,
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there's news, views, analysis.
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And each week I have a guest
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that can help me
get to the nitty-gritty
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on some of these
very important issues.
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And Ed Cook-- Dr. Ed Cook,
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well-versed on
church-state issues.
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I want to bring
up something to you.
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You know, there's--
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there were many and
varied religious liberty events.
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You can pick up any newspapers.
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We've sometimes
done on this program
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with one of the co-hosts
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that I had long time ago,
three times I can remember.
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We opened the day's
newspaper and one, two, three,
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I think four times,
within the one paper,
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there was something
relevant to religious liberty.
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But there's a
type of communication
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I get by letter, email,
sometimes they phone me up
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and people are
stirred to their--
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to their core over some great
injustice within the church
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with their rights are
being restricted that,
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that their
viewpoint is being shut down.
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And I say, "But, you know,
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this is a
religious liberty issue.
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My religious freedom
is being restricted."
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And most times I
have to tell them,
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"Well, this is not right.
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It doesn't sound fair,
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but it's not a religious
liberty question." Correct.
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What do you have
to think about that?
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Um, you know, I think that
from a Christian perspective,
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obviously we always want to
go back and looking at scripture
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and find out what the Bible
teaches us on a host of topics.
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And it's very interesting
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that the aspect of freedom
of conscience is something
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that the Bible does address.
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It's--the Greek
term is syneidesis,
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the term used for conscience
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and it's used numerous
times in the New Testament.
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In the Old
Testament, the term is not used.
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It's actually
in the Hebrew mind.
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They never really referred
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to the conscience
of the individual.
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They referred to the heart.
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The heart was the
combination of the emotions,
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the intellect,
the will, the memory,
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all of that combined
referred to as the heart.
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I haven't--I haven't
had this stuff told to me
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since I was in
college. Thank you.
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In the New Testament--
It's like a flashback. Yeah.
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In the New Testament,
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it comes from a
Greek perspective,
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a Greek worldview.
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The Jews through
the-- through the diaspora,
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they had integrated
into Greek and Roman society
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and maintained their
own identity as well.
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But Paul writing
from that perspective
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then uses the term syneidesis
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there with a Greek term
referring to conscience.
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And the idea that he portrays
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without deciding all of the
biblical text in his writings,
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but in essence,
what he is talking about
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is that the conscience is,
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you know, in Acts 23:1, he says,
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"I have lived in
all good conscience
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before God unto this day."
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So the idea that
he helps us understand
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is that our conscience should
be in relationship to God first.
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It is something
that should help us
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to discern
between good and evil,
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and it is
something that should help
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mold our actions as
far as our daily living.
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Now putting that in the
context of religious freedom
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within the church, okay?
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Do you have the right to say
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and do anything and if
you're restricted is that
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a true
restriction of your freedom
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Christian or civil? Correct.
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Within the civil,
within the-- excuse me,
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within the sphere of the church,
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what the New
Testament brings out
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is that the
moment one case converted
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and transitions into the church
becomes a member of the church.
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One is doing that voluntarily.
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It's a response
to the Holy Spirit.
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So at that point,
one is uniting with those
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that are fellow
believers in that capacity.
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At that point, one
finds that there is a--
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if one could use that term,
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there is a limited
amount of free exercise
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or free
expression of the individual
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because in the
Book of Revelation,
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Paul--excuse me, John is
talking about the warning.
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He said he is
giving to the church
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that they should
not have in their midst,
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those that were basically--
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that symbolic term is referring
to those that are of Jezebel.
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You know, the
followers of Jezebel
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that lead the
children of God astray.
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So-- This is a good point.
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But you're coming at it
from a Biblical point of view
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and using the same terminology,
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free association
voluntary. Correct.
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And from a legal point
of view, that's how it is.
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Your liberties are
not being restricted
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because you have
freely associated. Correct.
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And if you find
it unsatisfactory,
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you can freely live. Correct.
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There's not a
compulsion there within--
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even though there maybe
an insistence on a church
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behavior in church organization
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that you're incompatible with.
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But the side of the dark edges,
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you can't be
forced into that. Correct.
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And people forget, don't they?
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You know, in my book that I--
what I deal with this Roman--
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Roman Catholicism
hegemony and religious freedom.
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There is a
section where I developed
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the idea of conscience
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from a New Testament
perspective in great detail.
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But in essence, the
summary that we come to
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is that scripture
does help us to understand
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that the moment
that we unite with--
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with any Christian body
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whether it's
Roman Catholic, Baptist,
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Seventh-day
Adventist, Lutheran, etcetera.
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We should have
taken the time to study
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their core values and beliefs
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and consent
voluntarily to be baptized
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to join that union or that,
that association of believers.
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Now having stated that
there are times along the way
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as each church body will face
the new developments in society.
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How will the church
leadership relate to,
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you know, it could
be issues of today,
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the homosexuality,
abortion, and down the line.
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So the believer that
is a member of that body
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needs to take the
time to engage in dialogue,
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engage in friendly debate
within the church confines,
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and basically be
willing to ultimately respect
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the direction of leadership
is going to provide it.
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I will say provide
it that one can see
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that there is not a clear
contradiction of scripture.
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For example, there
are some churches today
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that they will
advocate homosexual unions.
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Completely contrary
to 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
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where Paul condemns that.
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So as long as
it's not an outright
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direct
contradiction of scripture,
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one would need to recognize
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and respect the
authority of the church
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and its
leadership. I agree with that.
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Of course, those
that see scripture
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differently
wouldn't phrase it that way.
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And it's worth remembering,
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little early when you were
talking about Paul and his views
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and his understanding of
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integrity of the individual.
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Remember, he
tackled Peter front on. Yes.
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Even says that I told him off
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in front of everyone
his position was wrong.
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So I don't think
you can get from Paul
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in from the New Testament
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that we should be ciphers of
whatever system and keep quiet,
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never speak our piece, but
as far as having a position
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and we share it with
our fellow believers,
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and if they don't accept it,
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then we can't say
cry foul. Correct.
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But you-- And
certainly I would say that
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one church
member should not adopt
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the view of being able to say,
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you know, the
recognized leadership--
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they've adopted this position,
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I'm in disagreement with it
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and therefore my civil
rights are being undermined or--
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that the legal dimension
doesn't enter it there.
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It's a false dynamic. Yeah.
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People seem to think so,
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but you gave two keys
that seldom taken into account.
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When you're talking
about the Christian Church
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which is our dominant model
in North America and Australia
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where I'm from in
the western world.
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There will be less trouble
if people were truly converted
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and you can have
whole sermons on that,
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but at the very
least that should be
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a wholehearted
embrace of the concepts
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and of the emotional
commitment to the values
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that are
expressed in that church
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in the holy writings. Correct.
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Not enough of that goes on.
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People really
have their own agenda,
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their own willful ways.
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Then they
should be acknowledged.
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And you mentioned this,
an understanding of what
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that church stands for. Exactly.
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You're gonna
have a contradiction.
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And I know
sometimes this even happens
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in Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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People have a nice
social contact with someone.
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They think, "I want to
be part of that church."
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And the pastor
with good intensions
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but poor
forethought baptizes them.
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And then a little bit
later in Sabbath School Class,
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they discover this church says,
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it believes this
and this and this,
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I don't like that. Exactly.
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And then they object to it
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and they think
that their objection
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should carry some weight.
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They've joined a
group to believe something
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and they're out of
sync with it. Correct.
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And here is another
thing I think that add
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another dimension to
this that is very important.
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Coming back to what I
was talking about regarding
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the Biblical explanation
of conscience, syneidesis
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and how Paul as well
as John explained it.
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In Revelation Chapter 3,
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John goes through and
talks about the aspect.
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He says that those
that are of the Nicolaitans,
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you know, you
allow them to come,
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in essence
perverting the gospel,
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perverting the
church, and doctrine
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and teaching and he says,
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"They should not be allowed."
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Now understanding
that in the modern context,
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I believe that
there are many Christians
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that they adopt a
concept of religious freedom
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that basically they
associate with civil rights
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and they try to take those
civil rights into the church.
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And so what they
will do is they will say,
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for example, if I believe
that homosexuality is not wrong,
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my church is
speaking against it,
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I should have the
right to come into my church.
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I should have the right to
remain a member of the church
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and I should
have the right to say
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that what they're doing is wrong
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and they should
actually be more open
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and allow religious
freedom to homosexuals
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to join the join
the church, etcetera.
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And that's-- That's a
new way of expressing it.
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It's a thoroughly misdirected
understanding of what--
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what your personal rights
and freedoms entail. Correct.
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And they're applying what--
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it's the reasonable
model outside the church,
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but within the church structure,
it's just inappropriate.
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It's not that it's wrong,
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it's just not the
venue, is it? Correct.
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And let me add this as well,
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kind of just
shifting it a little bit
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from perspectives
of other faith groups.
00:10:02.09\00:10:05.11
Roman Catholics for
this reason in the document,
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Dignitatis Humanae foresaw
some of these developments.
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"The Dignity of Man,"
which is an underlying document
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for Vatican II's rethinking
of religious freedom. Correct.
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And what they
did is they recognize
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that the church
must retain its identity,
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in essence, its authority
in the transcendental sphere
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and not in the civil sphere.
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And so in essence,
that's why they're opening
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first three
statements of the document.
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And in my book, I outlined this
and flush it out a bit more,
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but in essence,
the church is saying
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in the first three statements
of Dignitatis Humanae,
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we recognize that
the Catholic Church
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is still the
soul depository of--
00:10:39.98\00:10:41.65
depository of truth.
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And for that reason, we separate
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the transcendental
sphere from the civil sphere.
00:10:45.96\00:10:48.42
In the civil sphere,
the church is saying,
00:10:48.45\00:10:50.22
"We recognize the right of
the individual as a civil right
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to have immunity from
corrosion and to pursue truth
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and finding it to embrace it.
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So in essence, the church is
by allowing religious freedom
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in the civil sphere, it is not
denying its own self identity.
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And I think that
most religious groups
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would need to adopt
maybe not the same dynamic,
00:11:07.76\00:11:10.43
but something similar
in the sense of saying,
00:11:10.46\00:11:12.53
"We recognize that
there are certain civil rights
00:11:12.56\00:11:14.65
that are existing in society,
00:11:14.68\00:11:16.47
but within the church or
within the religion Islam,
00:11:16.50\00:11:18.84
etcetera to maintain our
identity as a religious body."
00:11:18.87\00:11:21.95
We can't go and simply say,
"Our religion means nothing."
00:11:21.98\00:11:25.52
You've outlined it very well.
00:11:25.55\00:11:26.92
And, of course, that's
the Roman Catholic doctrine
00:11:26.95\00:11:28.51
which in this
regard is reasonable.
00:11:28.54\00:11:30.80
But, you know, we're not--
00:11:30.83\00:11:32.36
we're not advancing their
views wholeheartedly. Sure.
00:11:32.39\00:11:38.32
I'm just sharing--
00:11:38.35\00:11:39.72
Yeah, that's the lecture. Yeah.
00:11:39.75\00:11:41.12
Now I'll give you the quiz.
00:11:41.15\00:11:42.99
Real world, you
could be Solomon.
00:11:43.02\00:11:46.90
This is based on a
real world conversation
00:11:46.93\00:11:50.43
that I had with
someone they called me up.
00:11:50.46\00:11:53.20
And at their
church, we won't say
00:11:53.23\00:11:54.64
what denomination it was.
00:11:54.67\00:11:57.77
You could deduce it.
00:11:57.80\00:11:59.63
They called up and
they said that they had,
00:11:59.66\00:12:04.11
had some
involvement with a non-church--
00:12:04.14\00:12:09.56
I've got to mind
my words carefully.
00:12:09.59\00:12:10.96
They were involved
with a youth program
00:12:10.99\00:12:14.12
that was not
organized by that church,
00:12:14.15\00:12:15.90
but was only run, and organized,
00:12:15.93\00:12:19.98
and attended by fellow
members of that same church.
00:12:20.01\00:12:24.57
The church
pastor said that anybody
00:12:24.60\00:12:27.16
that belonged to
that organization
00:12:27.19\00:12:30.16
or had anything to do with it,
00:12:30.19\00:12:32.64
they would remove
them from any church office
00:12:32.67\00:12:35.28
and if they persisted
from membership in the church--
00:12:35.31\00:12:40.59
that's a rather strange sort of
restriction of religious liberty
00:12:40.62\00:12:45.48
and even hazarding membership
in the church for someone
00:12:45.51\00:12:48.80
who doesn't see, and
probably it's not out of harmony
00:12:48.83\00:12:51.56
with what the church holds.
00:12:51.59\00:12:53.76
Where does the
rights of the individual
00:12:53.79\00:12:57.43
figure versus
the church is right
00:12:57.46\00:13:00.57
and where is religious
liberty in all of this?
00:13:00.60\00:13:03.45
You know, I think
that the central element
00:13:03.48\00:13:07.87
to take into
consideration to answer that,
00:13:07.90\00:13:10.13
is that all depends
on the church governance,
00:13:10.16\00:13:12.80
how they're structured.
00:13:12.83\00:13:14.20
For example, there
were many individuals
00:13:14.23\00:13:16.63
that there was an outcry
00:13:16.66\00:13:18.70
when the
theologian Leonardo Boff,
00:13:18.73\00:13:21.90
Catholic in Zellwood,
00:13:21.93\00:13:23.30
that was teaching
liberation theology.
00:13:23.33\00:13:25.62
The Catholic Church
actually silenced him.
00:13:25.65\00:13:27.86
In essence, what it meant
00:13:27.89\00:13:29.26
is that they've
considered his writings
00:13:29.29\00:13:31.33
and his teachings to be
00:13:31.36\00:13:32.73
questionable
contrary to their faith.
00:13:32.76\00:13:34.63
And so they--
when they silenced him,
00:13:34.66\00:13:36.67
that meant that he can no
longer speak publicly about it.
00:13:36.70\00:13:38.98
He can no longer teach about it.
00:13:39.01\00:13:40.61
He can no longer write about it
00:13:40.64\00:13:42.09
for at least
for a period of time
00:13:42.12\00:13:43.49
until the Magisterium had
time to review his teaching.
00:13:43.52\00:13:45.78
Now, of course, they
really couldn't silence him.
00:13:45.81\00:13:48.66
There would just be the
penalty of excommunication
00:13:48.69\00:13:51.18
or separation
from the membership,
00:13:51.21\00:13:52.83
but he legally
couldn't, really be silenced--
00:13:52.86\00:13:56.09
I mean, in the literal
way, I'll put it that way.
00:13:56.12\00:13:58.05
As long as he respected
the authority of the church,
00:13:58.08\00:14:00.72
then he would
respect their judgment
00:14:00.75\00:14:02.14
and he would no longer
speak or teach on it. Yeah.
00:14:02.17\00:14:04.22
Now what he ended up
opting to do in his case
00:14:04.25\00:14:06.21
is he just
withdrew from the society.
00:14:06.24\00:14:08.27
He had been in Zellwood,
He was drew from there.
00:14:08.30\00:14:10.41
Okay, I can see
our time is run by.
00:14:10.44\00:14:12.96
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:12.99\00:14:14.92
to continue this very
interesting discussion
00:14:14.95\00:14:17.29
of differences within a church.
00:14:17.32\00:14:19.69