Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
00:00:06.37\00:00:08.01
Before the break with my guest
00:00:08.04\00:00:11.39
we were talking about
separation of church and state
00:00:11.42\00:00:15.10
from the point of
view of the modern--
00:00:15.13\00:00:18.39
threat is the wrong word
but the challenge of Islam,
00:00:18.42\00:00:21.37
a religion that
consciously rejects
00:00:21.40\00:00:24.72
the separation
of church and state
00:00:24.75\00:00:26.66
and arguably
because of the Quran.
00:00:26.69\00:00:29.18
Yeah, what I think,
you know, one of the ideas
00:00:29.21\00:00:31.97
that I wanted to
flush out a little bit more
00:00:32.00\00:00:35.01
is it if we flip the question
around just a little bit.
00:00:35.04\00:00:37.81
Instead of
looking at it about Islam
00:00:37.84\00:00:40.55
and how it might impact
into the western society,
00:00:40.58\00:00:44.49
looking at it from
the perspective of saying
00:00:44.52\00:00:46.59
that for Islam their--
the foundational principles
00:00:46.62\00:00:50.56
that they operate
off of is they believe
00:00:50.59\00:00:52.65
that their religion is
such a part of their life
00:00:52.68\00:00:55.20
that it should be
interwoven in society.
00:00:55.23\00:00:57.17
Okay, having understand--
Christian should believe too.
00:00:57.20\00:01:00.18
Yes. Well, here's the point--
00:01:00.21\00:01:01.91
You shouldn't separate
your faith and your attitudes
00:01:01.94\00:01:05.18
as a Christian
from anything you do.
00:01:05.21\00:01:07.12
Correct.
00:01:07.15\00:01:08.52
For the Islamic
society there is--
00:01:08.55\00:01:10.97
in essence it argues
for a confessional state.
00:01:11.00\00:01:14.27
Because they've
reached the point
00:01:14.30\00:01:15.76
that not only should
they be allowed to practice
00:01:15.79\00:01:17.82
their faith in society
but it's also something
00:01:17.85\00:01:20.16
that government
should be lined up with that.
00:01:20.19\00:01:23.06
Now looking at it from
a Christian perspective
00:01:23.09\00:01:25.68
and I could even narrow
it down just a little bit
00:01:25.71\00:01:27.49
more specifically
to Roman Catholicism
00:01:27.52\00:01:29.77
and Evangelical
Protestant churches.
00:01:29.80\00:01:32.40
When they start arguing
much the same way--for example,
00:01:32.43\00:01:36.50
that government should not
adopt a separationist position
00:01:36.53\00:01:39.45
but instead government should
proactively support religion--
00:01:39.48\00:01:42.77
I believe that's
where they are heading.
00:01:42.80\00:01:44.30
Well, see what we find
is that all of a sudden
00:01:44.33\00:01:46.22
there is an alignment
of Islam and generally
00:01:46.25\00:01:49.39
most of Christianity to argue
that government should actually
00:01:49.42\00:01:53.66
be united with religion
to support it in society.
00:01:53.69\00:01:56.49
And I'll tell you
the latest evidence of
00:01:56.52\00:01:58.19
where I think this is
going and it's not good.
00:01:58.22\00:02:02.82
The coalition of
mostly Islamic states
00:02:02.85\00:02:05.84
for probably at
least a decade or more
00:02:05.87\00:02:07.93
now have been
pushing in the United Nations
00:02:07.96\00:02:10.80
for an international covenant,
for want of a better word,
00:02:10.83\00:02:15.41
against defamation of religion.
00:02:15.44\00:02:19.34
And the US and
many western countries
00:02:19.37\00:02:21.83
have pushed back against that.
00:02:21.86\00:02:23.68
But of late, the
Roman Catholic Church
00:02:23.71\00:02:26.30
most notably
but not the only one
00:02:26.33\00:02:28.76
has been
suggesting something similar,
00:02:28.79\00:02:32.79
that there
should be prohibitions
00:02:32.82\00:02:35.49
against defaming
of the religions.
00:02:35.52\00:02:40.94
Sounds good on the face
of it but I just think that
00:02:40.97\00:02:43.29
it heads us straight
back to the Middle Ages.
00:02:43.32\00:02:45.66
Yeah--And right now
Christians, generally
00:02:45.69\00:02:49.87
and Roman Catholics themselves
are on the receiving end
00:02:49.90\00:02:53.04
of the laws along
those lines in Pakistan
00:02:53.07\00:02:55.65
and elsewhere where Christians
00:02:55.68\00:02:57.09
are being put on
trial for their life
00:02:57.12\00:02:59.51
because they made
some slighting comment
00:02:59.54\00:03:01.29
about Muhammad or
whatever or maybe not.
00:03:01.32\00:03:03.97
Maybe they didn't
even actually say it
00:03:04.00\00:03:05.37
but it's presumed by the society
00:03:05.40\00:03:07.86
and then Pakistani
law will condemn them
00:03:07.89\00:03:10.19
because they--
by being a Christian
00:03:10.22\00:03:13.52
have insulted the prophet.
00:03:13.55\00:03:15.93
So, you know, it looks two ways
00:03:15.96\00:03:17.95
but I have to think that
the Roman Catholic Church
00:03:17.98\00:03:20.41
in particular see some
final pay off, for getting the--
00:03:20.44\00:03:24.42
for
piggybacking under this trend
00:03:24.45\00:03:26.98
to restrict the
ability of somebody
00:03:27.01\00:03:29.77
not to grossly insult
but to speak negatively
00:03:29.80\00:03:33.92
in the sense of
religion by saying
00:03:33.95\00:03:35.77
"I believe this, I
don't believe that."
00:03:35.80\00:03:37.93
See, the problem
with that kind of a law
00:03:37.96\00:03:40.49
is that number one,
one could arguably--
00:03:40.52\00:03:42.92
You have a chilling
effect on religious expression.
00:03:42.95\00:03:45.83
One could see that it would be
00:03:45.86\00:03:47.28
a restriction of
free speech obviously.
00:03:47.31\00:03:49.32
But whenever we narrow it down
00:03:49.35\00:03:51.44
to the aspect of
religious speech,
00:03:51.47\00:03:53.68
the problem, biggest problem
with that kind of law is that
00:03:53.71\00:03:56.58
it is completely depended upon
00:03:56.61\00:03:58.65
which religious
body is the dominant one.
00:03:58.68\00:04:01.40
Because obviously for example,
00:04:01.43\00:04:02.80
if religion 'A'
is the dominant one
00:04:02.83\00:04:04.84
and they say we have this law
00:04:04.87\00:04:06.24
that we've
encouraged government to pass,
00:04:06.27\00:04:08.11
that is, let's say a
law against blasphemy.
00:04:08.14\00:04:10.31
You know, we shouldn't
denigrate any religion.
00:04:10.34\00:04:12.70
Well, if they are the
one in the dominance group
00:04:12.73\00:04:15.20
nobody can speak against that
and it will automatically force
00:04:15.23\00:04:18.69
those that are smaller
religions to remain such.
00:04:18.72\00:04:21.65
But when one recognizes
that there should be in society
00:04:21.68\00:04:24.67
the free speech,
free religious expression
00:04:24.70\00:04:27.34
then it allows
any religious group
00:04:27.37\00:04:29.62
to express their views and
sharing those to proselytize
00:04:29.65\00:04:33.28
and basically grow
their congregations
00:04:33.31\00:04:35.10
as they are blessed by the Lord.
00:04:35.13\00:04:36.50
You know, we need
to tell our viewers
00:04:36.53\00:04:37.90
it seems self evident although
they could allow another viewer
00:04:37.93\00:04:41.39
listening to our
freewheeling discussion.
00:04:41.42\00:04:43.16
But nobody in
religious liberty work
00:04:43.19\00:04:45.29
I think would even
dare to suggest that
00:04:45.32\00:04:48.48
as a matter of
course we should insult,
00:04:48.51\00:04:51.22
malign or speak profanely
of other people's faith.
00:04:51.25\00:04:57.08
That's in the extreme
but the free speech issue
00:04:57.11\00:05:00.61
requires that you allow
even that sort of behavior
00:05:00.64\00:05:04.21
under the rubric of the
rights of religious expression.
00:05:04.24\00:05:08.60
Where it becomes very dangerous
is not those extreme people.
00:05:08.63\00:05:13.04
Most people can sort of
judge someone that's just,
00:05:13.07\00:05:15.61
you know--well, the Bible
says like the tongue is like,
00:05:15.64\00:05:18.59
you know, a burning brand.
00:05:18.62\00:05:19.99
You know, just creating
me mayhem everywhere they go.
00:05:20.02\00:05:22.73
But where it's dangerous is
00:05:22.76\00:05:24.28
where you're
advancing your faith
00:05:24.31\00:05:26.51
and maybe you believe something
that's different from the other.
00:05:26.54\00:05:28.94
And that dominant religion
says that it's offensive to them
00:05:28.97\00:05:32.82
for you even to
suggest your faith.
00:05:32.85\00:05:34.22
So they lower the threshold
of what's insulting it.
00:05:34.25\00:05:38.06
Maybe you've lowered it so
far you don't even know before
00:05:38.09\00:05:40.13
you speak your
comment that this is an insult
00:05:40.16\00:05:42.24
to another faith and
that's very dangerous.
00:05:42.27\00:05:44.56
But the only way to stay clear
00:05:44.59\00:05:46.53
that I think is like
free speech generally.
00:05:46.56\00:05:49.02
Allow all
religious speech and then,
00:05:49.05\00:05:52.59
then as far as
social pressure decry it
00:05:52.62\00:05:54.96
when it's just
over the top. Correct.
00:05:54.99\00:05:57.07
It's not--it's not polite
and you'll need to change.
00:05:57.10\00:06:02.19
I think most people
recognize when something is,
00:06:02.22\00:06:04.76
you know, where
they are spitting hatred,
00:06:04.79\00:06:06.29
you know,
someone's just spewing hatred
00:06:06.32\00:06:08.01
and malevolence and
dislike of another group.
00:06:08.04\00:06:10.77
That's not--that
shouldn't be socially acceptable
00:06:10.80\00:06:13.73
but we have to allow it
to be legally acceptable
00:06:13.76\00:06:16.26
as long as we want
religious liberty, right?
00:06:16.29\00:06:18.71
And see it's something like
00:06:18.74\00:06:20.11
creating an
environment like that,
00:06:20.14\00:06:22.44
much like what we find
here in the United States,
00:06:22.47\00:06:24.60
allows for the free
expression of religion
00:06:24.63\00:06:27.98
even if there's
different viewpoints.
00:06:28.01\00:06:29.91
And the moment
that we start trying
00:06:29.94\00:06:31.89
to establish
some kind of a gauge
00:06:31.92\00:06:34.16
to say this is
acceptable and this is not--
00:06:34.19\00:06:36.42
We're in trouble. Yeah.
00:06:36.45\00:06:37.82
The danger is,
is that who's going
00:06:37.85\00:06:39.22
to be the dominant authority
to say--to define that.
00:06:39.25\00:06:42.33
And once religion
takes on that role,
00:06:42.36\00:06:44.78
all of a sudden you
find some group ostracized
00:06:44.81\00:06:46.90
and persecuted,
marginalized and others favored.
00:06:46.93\00:06:50.35
And I think we're already into
enchanted ground in my view.
00:06:50.38\00:06:54.58
You know, there
was this big fuss
00:06:54.61\00:06:56.43
recently on a film
that I haven't yet seen.
00:06:56.46\00:06:59.43
And I'll accept that
it was pretty low life,
00:06:59.46\00:07:01.74
this film about Muhammad.
00:07:01.77\00:07:05.84
The cause
rioting-- cause in quotes,
00:07:05.87\00:07:08.82
rioting all
over the Middle East.
00:07:08.85\00:07:10.60
But I noticed that
this guy is now in jail
00:07:10.63\00:07:14.23
on a parole violation.
00:07:14.26\00:07:17.15
I do believe in
coincidences in life
00:07:17.18\00:07:19.72
but I've noticed the pattern.
00:07:19.75\00:07:21.49
He did something that
was offensive, not illegal.
00:07:21.52\00:07:24.37
And pressure has brought to bear
00:07:24.40\00:07:26.49
in this case they
called in... his prior life
00:07:26.52\00:07:30.33
and he's bearing
a penalty suddenly.
00:07:30.36\00:07:32.41
He might not have otherwise.
00:07:32.44\00:07:33.91
This is not
Religious Liberty but a sign of
00:07:33.94\00:07:36.35
this Australian
freewheeling tattletal
00:07:36.38\00:07:43.04
spilled a lot of secrets.
00:07:43.07\00:07:44.58
The US would love to
have him in court and try him
00:07:44.61\00:07:47.94
on espionage charges
or something like that.
00:07:47.97\00:07:51.26
But I noticed that a charge
00:07:51.29\00:07:53.57
came out of the
woodwork of sexual abuse.
00:07:53.60\00:07:58.46
And he's still
fighting his deportation
00:07:58.49\00:08:00.89
fearing that he'll
be deported to the US.
00:08:00.92\00:08:02.74
I think we've already
seen that some of these things
00:08:02.77\00:08:06.03
even though they may not
narrowly speaking be illegal
00:08:06.06\00:08:08.94
but great legal pressure is
brought to bear against you.
00:08:08.97\00:08:11.72
And they have a hugely
chilling effect on free speech
00:08:11.75\00:08:14.81
and religious speech
as the case might be.
00:08:14.84\00:08:18.46
Now coming back,
putting all of that--
00:08:18.49\00:08:20.46
And so the rioting.
00:08:20.49\00:08:22.24
While we think that
just unhinged crowds
00:08:22.27\00:08:25.63
within the Muslim community
can't represent all of Islam
00:08:25.66\00:08:28.45
but it happens in
all Muslim countries.
00:08:28.48\00:08:30.36
When they run, people die.
00:08:30.39\00:08:32.22
That has a chilling
effect on religious expression.
00:08:32.25\00:08:35.12
There's no question already
00:08:35.15\00:08:36.52
though that's
happened in the worst.
00:08:36.55\00:08:38.54
And I think, you
know, kind of putting it
00:08:38.57\00:08:40.41
within the context of
this idea of the Islamic states
00:08:40.44\00:08:44.95
pushing for some
kind of legislation
00:08:44.98\00:08:47.46
that one could
look at and say, okay,
00:08:47.49\00:08:49.50
they're not wanting one
group to defame another group.
00:08:49.53\00:08:53.65
Even though the language
of blasphemy laws are not used
00:08:53.68\00:08:57.22
I think that one can
gather the input of such laws
00:08:57.25\00:09:01.40
if they were passed is
basically a reversion back
00:09:01.43\00:09:04.41
to a time period
when the dominant religion
00:09:04.44\00:09:07.66
basically had such a control
over society that they said
00:09:07.69\00:09:10.44
what could be expressed and
what could not be expressed.
00:09:10.47\00:09:13.44
And that's the danger
that in the international arena
00:09:13.47\00:09:16.97
that we run into if
laws like that were passed.
00:09:17.00\00:09:19.37
It's a past
administration but I remember
00:09:19.40\00:09:22.29
under the previous US
presidency they went--
00:09:22.32\00:09:27.20
they didn't take too
kindly the people demonstrating
00:09:27.23\00:09:29.46
against the administration.
00:09:29.49\00:09:30.86
So it got to the point
00:09:30.89\00:09:33.03
where yes, you
could speak against them
00:09:33.06\00:09:35.76
but not in the
presence of the president.
00:09:35.79\00:09:38.03
And if he was
coming through town--
00:09:38.06\00:09:39.49
I remember on one
occasion the cavalcade was here
00:09:39.52\00:09:42.35
and 2 miles away
was a roped off area
00:09:42.38\00:09:45.46
that was called
the "free speech zone."
00:09:45.49\00:09:48.13
You could say
you're appeased too.
00:09:48.16\00:09:50.17
I think we're getting close
to that with religious speech
00:09:50.20\00:09:52.99
that's offensive to
others, particularly Islam.
00:09:53.02\00:09:56.41
Yes, within narrow
and narrow constrains
00:09:56.44\00:09:58.43
you can say less and less.
00:09:58.46\00:10:00.48
They won't stop you
totally but if you--
00:10:00.51\00:10:03.32
certainly if you made a
film that cause rioting,
00:10:03.35\00:10:06.16
you could find yourself in jail
for maligning that religion.
00:10:06.19\00:10:09.29
And you know, I think
that with that, Lincoln,
00:10:09.32\00:10:11.15
that one would
have to recognize that
00:10:11.18\00:10:13.55
while modern Islam is
trying through their scholars,
00:10:13.58\00:10:17.38
trying to find ways to
integrate with democracy,
00:10:17.41\00:10:20.29
trying to
accommodate religious pluralism,
00:10:20.32\00:10:23.59
there's still the
challenge that one finds
00:10:23.62\00:10:25.63
where there's core
principles and beliefs of Islam
00:10:25.66\00:10:29.81
that unless they
rewrite the Quran,
00:10:29.84\00:10:32.40
unless they rewrite
some of their history
00:10:32.43\00:10:34.56
they are still at
a great perplexity
00:10:34.59\00:10:37.76
to find how can they accommodate
00:10:37.79\00:10:39.71
and embrace
completely democracy--
00:10:39.74\00:10:42.43
Yeah, and we
express it as between
00:10:42.46\00:10:44.84
the--the
moderates and the radicals.
00:10:44.87\00:10:48.03
And
unfortunately, I think too often
00:10:48.06\00:10:50.50
when you relate
that to our experience
00:10:50.53\00:10:52.11
that's between
the fundamentalists
00:10:52.14\00:10:55.26
and the nominalists and within
a religion to depend on those
00:10:55.29\00:11:00.78
that are not strongly
committed to the religion
00:11:00.81\00:11:02.63
to solve the problem is
illusion I think at best.
00:11:02.66\00:11:06.53
But we're all
committed to seeking
00:11:06.56\00:11:08.39
some sort of religious harmony
such as that it's not violence
00:11:08.42\00:11:11.39
and there's freedom
to advance a religion.
00:11:11.42\00:11:13.34
Sure. Correct.
00:11:13.37\00:11:14.74
And I think that, you know,
that would be the central thing
00:11:14.77\00:11:16.25
that we would need
to try and focus on
00:11:16.28\00:11:18.34
in the modern context from
an international perspective
00:11:18.37\00:11:21.74
is trying to find a way
where different religions
00:11:21.77\00:11:24.37
can live together
in society in peace,
00:11:24.40\00:11:27.71
where they can find expression
of their religious views
00:11:27.74\00:11:30.36
and where they can
also basically feel
00:11:30.39\00:11:33.11
that they have
society established in a way
00:11:33.14\00:11:35.55
to guarantee and protect
societal peace and freedom.
00:11:35.58\00:11:38.76
I've had several very
satisfying discussions
00:11:40.33\00:11:43.30
with an Imam from a mosque over
on the west coast of the US.
00:11:43.33\00:11:48.23
He happens to be a
member of the Ahmadiyya sect,
00:11:48.26\00:11:51.44
a sect that most
westerners don't hear about.
00:11:51.47\00:11:53.49
We hear Shiites and Sunnis,
00:11:53.52\00:11:55.54
the two main
divisions within Islam
00:11:55.57\00:11:58.13
but there are others
including the Ahmadiyyas
00:11:58.16\00:12:00.78
who in their own
way accept Christ
00:12:00.81\00:12:02.93
and have a slightly
more enlightened view
00:12:02.96\00:12:05.51
of interacting
with other religions.
00:12:05.54\00:12:07.82
And it's been very satisfying
00:12:07.85\00:12:09.22
to share some of
their common concerns
00:12:09.25\00:12:11.50
about truth and integrity of,
00:12:11.53\00:12:14.64
in my case, the Bible
and his case the Quran
00:12:14.67\00:12:18.57
and then a common
interest in Jesus Christ.
00:12:18.60\00:12:21.81
But it strikes me
every time I talk to this man
00:12:21.84\00:12:24.41
and each article
that I printed from him
00:12:24.44\00:12:27.01
that there is a need
within his faith tradition
00:12:27.04\00:12:31.02
to work toward if not direct
pluralism in an understanding
00:12:31.05\00:12:35.97
and acceptance of a
slight divergence of opinion.
00:12:36.00\00:12:39.36
When we talk about
Islam we must remember
00:12:39.39\00:12:41.68
it is not a monolithic religion.
00:12:41.71\00:12:45.33
There are different views.
00:12:45.36\00:12:47.06
And there's Ellen White
speaking to Adventist said
00:12:47.09\00:12:49.07
there are many people
looking wistfully to heaven.
00:12:49.10\00:12:53.14
It's my prayer that
there may be many more of those
00:12:53.17\00:12:56.25
as we work toward accommodation
and dialogue with such faiths.
00:12:56.28\00:12:59.83
For "Liberty Insider"
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:01.94\00:13:05.48