Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000197A
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00:22 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is a program that brings you 00:26 news, views, discussion, 00:27 opinion on religious liberty events in the United States 00:31 and around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:35 a religious liberty journal 00:37 that's been around now for about 106 years. 00:40 And the guest on this program is Dr. Cook-- 00:46 Glad to be here with you. 00:47 A good friend and an author in Liberty magazine 00:50 articles over the years. 00:53 You're an expert on church state studies, 00:55 we'll push the limits of that. 00:57 But starting from the known 00:58 and going to the unknown Secretary Rumsfeld 01:01 used to say there are unknowns 01:04 and things that we don't know that we don't know. 01:07 So we'll see where we go. 01:09 It impressed on me that early on his pontificate, 01:12 Pope Benedict gave a poorly receive speech 01:18 in Regensburg, Germany. 01:20 And I've spoken about it on this program before. 01:23 He was really slapping around Protestants 01:26 for tending toward violence, he said. 01:29 But he started off by quoting a historical dialogue 01:33 between a Muslim and a Byzantine Emperor, 01:38 and the Islamic world bananas. 01:41 Even though he only repeated the record 01:43 that there was some tendency 01:45 to violence in Islam, he thought. 01:47 You know, that seems to me a discussible point. 01:50 Whether you're definitive on it that's-- 01:52 everything hinges on it. But we are living in an era 01:56 where there's a need apart from doctrinal truth, 02:00 there is an imperative, 02:03 a need for religions to get along with each other. 02:06 Not to give away their beliefs to each other, 02:08 that would be wrong to us. 02:11 How do you think the Christian world, 02:13 as well as Roman Catholicism, 02:15 how can we reach some sort of datum with Islam? 02:19 You know, I think that the first thing 02:21 that one needs to doing in analyzing that question 02:25 is look at the historical record of Islam 02:27 because obviously that's something that just 02:29 as people studying Catholicism 02:32 and asking that question prior to Vatican II, 02:35 the question was, 02:36 how can Catholicism bridge the gap of modernity 02:40 and stay in touch with the modern world? 02:42 Then of course at Vatican II 02:44 is where they hammered out 02:45 and reformulated a lot of their positions 02:47 and views in the documents 02:49 that were enunciated then through Vatican II. 02:51 You get ironically, it's the very modernity 02:53 that that's causing a rethink of Vatican II. 02:56 Correct. Pope Benedict is preoccupied 02:59 with the threat from secularism 03:00 which may not be as real as he thinks. 03:03 But that's causing a unfreezing-- 03:06 Yes, a reevaluation of Vatican II. 03:09 And so based on that, 03:11 I think that when one looks at Islam 03:13 and the question of church and state 03:14 and how can Islam relate to other religions, 03:17 one needs to look at the historical background 03:19 and recognize that, you know, 03:21 through the time period of the crusades 03:22 in the 7th and the 12th centuries, 03:25 the reaction or response of Christianity, 03:27 Catholicism to that, and in the modern world 03:31 what we're-- we need to understand 03:33 is the bigger picture you've got-- 03:34 it's a democracy now rather than 03:36 a formalized confessional state. 03:39 And so that is another dynamic 03:40 that would regulate interaction between 03:43 Islam and other religions. 03:45 In fact, I would say that's one of the central issues 03:48 that Islam scholars are taking the time 03:50 to discuss and debate, 03:52 looking into their own historical tradition-- 03:54 To see if they can move away from the confessional state. 03:56 Yes, more towards a modern democracy basically. 04:00 How can Islam relate to democracy, in essence. 04:03 And the scholars, that you've read, 04:06 are they doing with this with the reference to the Quran? 04:09 They claim, and I've read, 04:11 you know, through their statements, 04:12 their books, their writings 04:13 as well as how they refer back to the Quran, 04:16 they claim that there are statements in the Quran 04:18 that would-- they contain the principle, 04:21 in other words, of religious plurality. 04:23 And there are statements that I would have to state-- 04:25 to refer to that for example, 04:27 there are two statements that may-- 04:30 that refers to if the creator God 04:32 had wanted all to be of Allah, 04:35 in other words, believers in Allah, 04:36 would not he have made them that way. 04:39 Basically, contain the idea that they recognize 04:41 that in the world of today, there's going to be people 04:44 that believe in other religions other than in Allah. 04:46 Yes, you're right. 04:48 You know, I've read the Quran--not enough, 04:50 I've read it twice. 04:52 Well, once through formally and methodically 04:55 and another times sort of reviewing it 04:57 and then I refer to it now and then. 04:59 But like the Bible, I don't think, 05:01 you can read this complex holy books often enough 05:04 'cause there's layers of meaning. 05:05 But yeah, I know what you're talking about 05:08 because Muhammad, speaking as a non believer, 05:12 If you're a Muslim, 05:14 you have a totally different view of Muhammad 05:16 and the dictation from the Angel Gabriel. 05:19 But looking at as Muhammad writing this 05:23 and feeling he was on inspiration. 05:24 But Mohammad clearly accepted the inevitable 05:27 that there were non-Islamic communities. 05:30 And as long as they acknowledged Islam 05:33 and that's a key, you can't leave them alone 05:36 when they're rejecting or even harassing the UMMAH, 05:41 the body of believers. 05:43 But if there were sort of a truce 05:44 and they acknowledged, 05:46 "Yes, you are Muslims we are Christians." 05:47 They would leave you alone 05:49 as long as there was sort of an acceptance that Islam 05:52 is a preeminent religion. 05:54 But I don't believe you can find in the Quran 05:56 any prophetic acceptance 06:02 that the Muslim community used to have a secular rulership 06:07 or any sort of rulership separate from the religious 06:10 dictates of the community. It's so specific. 06:14 And I don't know how they'll get around it. 06:16 But I think myself the only way around it is-- 06:19 and it sort of a dangerous path, 06:21 to encourage within Islam what Christianity has done 06:24 and you and I would to decry treating the holy writings 06:29 as less than literal. 06:32 You know, there's one Catholic scholar, 06:35 a theologian by the name of John Esposito. 06:38 And basically--and he edited a three volume work 06:41 on Islam from a Catholic prospective. 06:44 And basically he has fostered relations with Muslims, 06:48 Muslim scholars. 06:50 And basically what Esposito argues 06:52 is that just as Catholicism prior to Vatican II 06:56 was out of touch with the modern world 06:58 and now through Vatican II 06:59 has attempted to bridge that gap. 07:01 He argues that Islam needs to go through 07:04 that same transitionary period as the Catholic Church 07:07 did in Vatican II and therefore be able 07:09 to bridge a lot of that gap. 07:11 Now obviously I think some of the challenges 07:13 that one would see in that picture, 07:15 as you pointed out, 07:17 is that within the Muslim community, 07:20 the Ummah, the body of believers, 07:21 you don't have a central figurehead 07:24 as the religious leader like in the Catholicism, 07:26 you've got the pope. 07:27 So based on the Islamic concept, 07:30 it is more of an integrationist approach. 07:33 They believe that their religion needs to be 07:34 interwoven in the fabric of society. 07:37 They don't see a separation of church and state. 07:39 For Catholicism, when they have the leader, 07:42 the figure head, the episcopacy with the pope at the top. 07:45 The pope through a council, like Vatican II, 07:48 can basically lead the different groups 07:51 that are in charge of formulating these documents 07:53 to try to conceptualize of a way 07:56 by which Catholicism can exist 07:58 and flourish within a modern democracy. 08:01 The contrast of that is that within the Muslim community 08:04 among the Ummah, 08:05 you've just got a mass of people that are-- 08:07 they adhere to their beliefs and they integrate into society 08:11 and they don't have somebody that call 08:13 a general council to meet among all of them. 08:15 Yeah, you're right. No central authority. 08:18 It's--in fact, in a way, it's...in a certain way, 08:25 it's really what Christianity should have been. 08:27 I think it'll be very hard line to argue the crust 08:33 and the early church-- the very early church leaders 08:37 ever envisioned a higher denominational structure. 08:44 And even within our church, 08:45 the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 08:46 Ellen White, who was a pioneer of Adventism 08:48 and I'm satisfied that she spoke under some inspiration. 08:55 She was quite apposed to structure itself. 08:59 She saw it as necessary as a group 09:01 come to a certain size. 09:03 So, you know, we're apparently 09:06 criticizing or critiquing Islam. 09:09 But in some ways that it's strength, 09:10 not it's weakness. 09:12 But it's a weakness when you're dealing 09:13 with bringing the whole group 09:15 into a new more benign point of view. 09:18 Correct. 09:20 And I don't really have the west could 09:21 or the Christian west or the Christianity per say 09:25 could influence Islam in that direction. 09:28 You know, there is another scholar that recently, 09:31 it was in just a few years ago, 09:33 published a book, an Islamic scholar, 09:36 that's titled "Redefining Church and State, 09:38 the influence of Muslims in western society." 09:41 Yeah, let's read that. That's a good title. 09:43 Maybe some of our viewers 09:44 will look up something about that. 09:45 And what he's arguing basically 09:47 is that the traditionally concept of church and state 09:49 as it was-- the history of Europe shows-- 09:53 It's a very new concept for us. 09:55 Yes, the struggles between the Catholic Church 09:58 and the state at the time-- 10:00 different empires existing during European history. 10:03 That interaction between the two 10:04 is something that was the given norm. 10:06 And then we move into the modern era 10:08 with the enlightenment philosophy, 10:10 influence in America, 10:12 the idea of separation of church and state 10:14 through the first amendment, 10:16 the vision of the founding fathers, 10:17 and as democracy began to birth here 10:20 and then flourish throughout the world, 10:22 so that now it's became more of the dominant 10:24 political structure in the world, 10:26 you find that based on that Catholicism said, 10:29 "Okay, we need to reposition ourselves in relation 10:32 to that modern construct." 10:34 So in the same way, this Islamic scholar is arguing 10:36 that now with Islam dominating 10:38 much of the global field it is forcing 10:41 western society to rethink the church-state concept-- 10:44 Well, not in the right way either. 10:46 It's more of an argument for the western society 10:51 in essence to recognize that religion should not be 10:54 distinct and separate from society. 10:55 Yeah. And even as you outline 10:57 what is true because in "Liberty Magazine" 11:00 we speak of it and have articles on it all the time 11:03 about the separation of church and state 11:05 in the U.S. informed by the enlightenment 11:07 and we drop that enlightenment very frequently. 11:10 But really when I look at history, 11:11 from my knowledge of it, 11:13 while it was informed by the enlightenment, 11:16 it was really only the American experiment 11:18 that truly took it to its logical conclusion. 11:22 And you mentioned the western world, 11:24 most of the rest of the western world 11:25 doesn't have the strict separationism 11:27 that the U.S. aspires to. Correct. 11:29 Like in Canada just north of the border. 11:31 There it's really equal treatment of religions. 11:34 And there's some heavy state subsidy of Catholicism, 11:38 for example, in Quebec and that area. 11:40 And so the goal of the government 11:42 and those working with that is to make sure 11:44 that they equally favor other religions. 11:47 But it's not church-state. 11:49 And in England where arguably 11:53 the American experiment began today in England. 11:55 You know, they haven't established state-church. 11:57 Then don't meddle in the private lives of people. 11:59 That's--but I wouldn't really call that, 12:02 you know, a bright line between church and state. 12:04 Correct. And you can go pretty much 12:06 all around the world looking at that way. 12:09 So I can see as you say that it could-- 12:12 the stress of dealing with a total religious other 12:15 and trying to reach some accommodation 12:17 could lead us to rethink negatively 12:20 at separation of church and state. 12:22 You know, what's interesting though as far as, 12:24 I guess, kind of flipping the scenario around 12:27 and looking at it from a Catholic perspective 12:30 would argue more along the lines of wanting 12:32 to recognize that government 12:34 has an obligation to support religion 12:37 and not have a vacuum in essence 12:39 or a neutral position of government and-- 12:41 And that's not a bad position. 12:43 I wish in the U.S., there was more thinking like 12:45 that because groups like 12:46 the Freedom of Religion Foundation 12:48 are playing on the constitution 12:49 with a state of desire to drive it out of existence-- 12:52 religion out of existence. 12:53 We'll be back after a short break. 12:55 So please come back and rejoin us 12:56 on our discussion of the challenges of Islam 13:00 and the separation of church and state. |
Revised 2014-12-17