Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000196A
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00:22 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is the program bringing you discussion, 00:26 news, up to date information, 00:28 and analysis of religious liberty developments 00:31 in the United States and around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of "Liberty Magazine." 00:37 And my guest on the program is Dr. Ed Cook. Welcome, Ed. 00:42 There's many things we can talk about, 00:45 but let me give you a Biblical image 00:47 that's flashed into my mind that's actually 00:48 what you were talking before. 00:50 In the Christian record there's nothing 00:53 I think more central to what Jesus 00:56 was about in that time in the upper room 00:58 when He was-- He served His disciples. 01:01 It says, He took of his cloths-- 01:03 But I don't think He was naked, but, I mean, He stripped off-- 01:06 The outer garment. 01:08 The garment and took a towel and wash their feet 01:10 which wasn't just-- 01:12 in the Seventh-day Adventist Church 01:13 we have an ordinance copying that but, 01:15 you know, we're usually pretty clean, 01:16 in fact, we make sure we clean our feet before the service. 01:19 They were dusty from the roads 01:20 and literally he was the servant. 01:23 And I've been bemused, in fact, 01:26 in a way impressed to know that once a year, 01:29 the Pope of Rome washes the feet, 01:32 I think of, 14 or 20 or so priests. 01:37 They really do that. So it's one thing to be humble. 01:40 I think humility 01:42 is a characteristic of Christianity, should be. 01:44 True. 01:46 But when you're talking about what is acclaimed to be 01:50 the central edifice of Christendom, 01:53 theologically I could challenge that. 01:54 But historically Rome and the Roman Catholic Churches' 01:57 claims and, you know, all the pomp and circumstances 02:00 that goes with them. 02:02 They make some pretty big claims. 02:03 And through the middle ages 02:05 they claimed to be superior to the secular 02:08 pals and many of the great clashes of history 02:12 between popes and kings, "Who was the greatest?" 02:15 There is a term that you've introduced me to 02:17 and we featured it in "Liberty Magazine", subsidiarity. Yes. 02:21 How is this now reformulated for the modern world, 02:25 some of this past dynamic of who is top dog, 02:28 to use a colloquial term? 02:31 Sure. 02:32 Subsidiarity, just to give it a general definition, 02:35 is that it argues that in between 02:38 two structured powers, whether it's civil government or even, 02:42 you know, in an cooperation in so forth. 02:46 The upper body needs to recognize 02:49 and basically relegate to the lower body 02:53 as much authority and power as it can, 02:55 so that body can function and fulfill its tasks. 02:59 So in essence it's more of them-- 03:01 In political terms, it is almost the exact opposite 03:05 of federalism or a substitute for it. 03:07 Now federalism basically would be, 03:10 for example here in America, 03:11 you have the different states that we-- 03:12 It dealted the pre-civil war, right? 03:14 Yes. Okay. 03:15 You have the states that would come together and-- 03:18 They were sovereign states that delegated 03:20 that's the term in the constitution-- 03:21 certain responsibilities to the power 03:24 that would out for all of them. 03:25 But they were the sovereignty as well. Yes. 03:27 And so in essence one finds that in the modern context, 03:31 politically speaking, federalism as a concept becomes 03:34 the overarching structure for many governments. 03:37 Here in America we've grown 03:39 to the point of a dominant federalism. 03:41 And so Roman Catholicism is responding 03:44 to that in political terms by saying 03:46 we advocate the concept of subsidiarity. 03:48 In other words, federal government, 03:50 you've got to restrict and contain your power 03:53 and allow us at this level to fully function 03:56 and fulfill all of our duties to the fullest extent 03:59 that we can without having 04:00 your dominance and control over us. 04:02 In practical terms basically what it means 04:04 is that the church is arguing for more of its freedom 04:08 from the aspect of big brother or federalism, 04:11 the government hanging over its shoulder. 04:13 Maybe, maybe I've got it on, 04:15 turned, it hit in my mind but the way 04:18 I've seen it is that-- the Catholic Church 04:23 assuming that it speaks for the Christian Church 04:27 and that it's received maximum authority from Christ, 04:33 regards itself as superior to the civil powers. 04:37 But it's allowed it to operate separately and autonomously 04:41 as long as when push comes to shove 04:44 it's an inferior being. But am I wrong? 04:47 No, I would say that there is two ways of applying the term 04:50 or the concept of subsidiarity. 04:53 In the current context the church recognizes 04:56 that there is a dominant federalism, here in America 05:00 as well and as in other country like Germany and so forth. 05:02 What the church is trying to do 05:04 is basically trying to reestablish more of a balance-- 05:07 A relationship. Yes. 05:08 So instead of the church always being constrained 05:11 and restricted by federal government 05:13 they're trying to say, 05:14 "We need to rebalance the picture 05:16 and bring the church back up 05:18 at least maybe not an equal or not a superior 05:21 but at least getting close to having more power." 05:22 In practice. Yeah. 05:24 I think--and I've read enough in these statements, 05:26 I think they're still reserving-- 05:28 In reality, any Christian would reserve that, too. 05:31 God's kingdom is above all-- 05:33 Correct. Human power. 05:35 But as a-- Infatuation way. 05:37 Yeah, in Seventh-day Adventist or most protestants, 05:40 we don't presume that our church entity 05:43 has innate authority other than 05:45 that we're acknowledging Christ. 05:47 But the Catholic Church makes much of the keys 05:50 of heaven and hell and the authority of Peter. 05:53 So they see themselves, you know, as God is up here 05:57 but they are the representative of God 05:59 and therefore overall secular power. 06:01 Correct. Than is the-- 06:03 But they're not expressing it that way. Correct. 06:05 I think in the theologically 06:07 there are reserving that but yes, 06:09 they're trying to enter into a world, 06:11 realignment of power which in essence 06:13 is to move the church up as an equal. 06:15 Correct. And I would say-- 06:18 coming back to a comment you made earlier, 06:20 is that historically you find that they church freely, 06:24 overtly exercised its power 06:26 and made statements to the effect 06:27 that it was the dominant authority above the civil power. 06:31 Now that we've coming to the modern era of democracy, 06:34 you find that federalism as a concept 06:37 like here in America, unifying the states 06:39 and the federal government taking 06:40 a neutral role towards religion 06:42 to protect the rights of citizens 06:44 throughout the United States, 06:45 is something that the Catholic Church sees that as threat. 06:49 For example, in practical terms 06:51 if you have-- at the state level, 06:52 you have the Catholic Church and other evangelicals 06:55 that would like to see creationism 06:57 taught in the public schools. 06:59 The federal government steps in and says, 07:00 "No, you can't do that, 07:02 that's a violation of the establishment clause." 07:03 And so those conservative Christian groups 07:06 see that as a threat. 07:08 And so what they're trying to do is rebalance 07:09 the power by introducing ideas of subsidiarity 07:12 which would basically argue, "Federal government, 07:15 we recognized your role 07:17 but you got to recognize our role 07:18 as a spiritual entity and therefore 07:20 we should have the right to able to do this, 07:23 to fulfill our mission in society." 07:25 So it is correct, what you're stating, 07:26 it's a concept design to reposition-- 07:29 So it's to elevate-- The church, yes. 07:31 And even as they express it generally 07:33 to the government is to move the church up not-- 07:36 something the church-- 07:37 the state can dispose off easily. 07:39 But no, we're a power to be reckoned with it. Right. 07:41 We have to give us some prerogatives. Let me share-- 07:45 And I think that explains, almost in nutshell, 07:47 what's going on with the healthcare debate 07:51 in the Catholic hospitals and the health mandate. 07:54 Correct-- And, Lincoln, 07:56 I'll come back to that in just a second 07:57 but let me give them just a little bit 07:58 of more historical background within Catholic history 08:02 regarding the aspect of subsidiarity. 08:04 There is a related concept, 08:06 a sister concept, known as Solidarity. 08:08 Yes. I was going to get onto that, thank you. 08:10 Though there is two balancing concept, 08:12 Subsidiarity and Solidarity. 08:14 I've talked a little bit about subsidiarity-- 08:16 And not necessarily just to be limited 08:18 to Poland and the solidarity. 08:20 Correct, yeah. A little bit more theologically, isn't it? 08:23 Yeah, both of those concepts trace back 08:25 to the time period of 1870s and 1880s, 08:28 Pope Leo XIII was the one who in his first encyclical, 08:33 talking about, in essence, 08:35 talking about the social situation, 08:37 where you had the modern industrial states 08:40 that began to be coming to existence, 08:42 industrialization, communism began to become a threat. 08:46 The Catholic Church was loosing many of their members 08:49 to the communist moment 08:50 because it advocated labor rights. 08:52 So the Catholic Church had to find a response to that. 08:55 And it was Bishop von Ketteler is the individuals name 08:57 that conceive of the idea of subsidiarity and solidarity 09:01 and in contributing that to the Pope 09:04 and other theologians of day. 09:06 They began to write that out, 09:08 even to the time of 100 years later 09:10 John Paul II and "Centesimus Annus," 09:13 a 100 year commemoration of that encyclical. 09:16 "Rerum Novarum," is the actual term-- 09:19 What is that mean? 09:20 Rerum Novarum, literally means "Of new things." 09:23 And so the Catholic Church was saying, 09:24 "We see a new development in society 09:27 with industrialization and communism, the threat of it. 09:30 And so we need to find a way to conceptualize 09:32 of how is the church relate to the working class, 09:35 the laboring body." 09:37 And through Rerum Novarum-- 09:38 that's what they actually began to argue 09:40 for the rise of workers in opposition to cooperations, 09:44 businesses, industrialization, and the state. 09:46 But in the context, in that very encyclical, 09:49 "Rerum Novarum," it talks about the need 09:51 of workers to have a day of rest on Sunday. 09:54 And so 100 years later, 09:56 John Paul II wrote "Centesimus Annus," 09:59 which was a 100 year commemoration 10:01 of that encyclical "Rerum Novarum." 10:03 Centesimus Annus meaning a 100 years celebration of it. 10:06 And so we find that through successive popes, 10:09 Pope Leo XIII, John Paul II, Benedict, now-- 10:11 Now Benedict with "Caritas in veritate." 10:14 Yes, they are developing and introducing 10:17 the concepts of subsidiarity and solidarity 10:20 into society to restructure the playing field in essence. 10:24 And this latest document, 10:26 I hadn't read that earlier one, 10:28 definitely he gets into capital and labor issues 10:31 and again there's a societal need for a workers rest. 10:37 Correct. And you're readings on lot of these 10:40 and obviously you studied it for years to get your doctorate. 10:43 Have you ever come across any self awareness from Rome 10:48 that just looked at the world events 10:51 since World War II descriptively 10:53 or even a little bit before obviously, 10:55 starting in-- was it 1980, 10:57 the Russian Revolution? 10:58 I think it was 1982 or 90. 11:03 It's obvious to me that the Catholicism, 11:06 eastern orthodox or Roman Catholicism, both of them. 11:10 It's only in those countries that communism flourished. 11:14 Yes. There is no Protestant or even other religion-- 11:19 I mean, on the face of it you might think so 11:21 because some Asian countries became communist 11:24 but they were already usually catholicized like Vietnam, 11:28 that was strongly Roman Catholic, you know. 11:31 There's something about the practice of those religions 11:34 that was made them vulnerable to a communist appeal. 11:38 And I don't really know the answer but you could-- 11:40 it's just it's a one-to-one correspondence. 11:43 There is a secular author, now deceased, 11:46 Paul Blanchard was his name. I know the name-- 11:49 He was the reporter, a very famous journalist at the time. 11:52 He actually went and chronicled the events of Vatican 2, 11:56 but he had also written a book, 11:58 talking about communism, 11:59 Catholicism, and in essence how he viewed it 12:02 as a threat to the society. 12:04 Some of the parallels that he identified 12:06 between the two is basically having the concept of 12:09 an organized authority structure or figure. 12:12 You know, in communism it's the brotherhood 12:13 a fraternal identity among the working class. 12:17 And you have the proletariat. 12:19 And basically you have 12:20 that established to government society. 12:23 So what he was arguing in essence 12:24 was that Catholicism is a simply a modified form 12:28 or different form of communism, 12:30 whereas communism would be against religion, 12:33 Catholicism advocates religion, 12:35 you've got the structured tier structure within Catholicism. 12:38 Those were some of his ideas 12:40 but one would look at parallels between the two 12:43 from I guess you'd say, 12:44 historical as well as a non religionist perspective. 12:48 That's how he viewed things. Possible. 12:51 I wonder whether it was an authoritarianism-- 12:53 religious authoritarianism, 12:54 allied with state path that didn't alienate people. 12:58 But anyhow there's something going on. 13:01 It's very interesting and even most recently 13:03 it's died down in the last couple of decades. 13:06 But from World War II until relative recently, 13:09 the communist party was the strongest party in Italy 13:13 and this Christian socialist 13:15 have moved in a little bit since-- 13:17 but the communist party ran things 13:19 and that's very odd right at the seat of Roman power. 13:23 Let me revert that briefly that solidarity-- 13:25 Yeah, it's solidarity and subsidiarity. 13:27 Solidarity is something-- 13:28 Well, I see our time is gone for the first half. 13:31 Let's break and be back after the break 13:34 to continue this discussion of very important concepts 13:38 developing within the Roman Catholic Church 13:40 and of course implemented with government's worldwide, 13:43 solidarity and subsidiarity. |
Revised 2014-12-17