Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider."
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This is the program
bringing you discussion,
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news, up to date information,
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and analysis of
religious liberty developments
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of "Liberty Magazine."
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And my guest on the program
is Dr. Ed Cook. Welcome, Ed.
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There's many
things we can talk about,
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but let me give
you a Biblical image
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that's flashed into
my mind that's actually
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what you were talking before.
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In the Christian
record there's nothing
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I think more
central to what Jesus
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was about in that
time in the upper room
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when He was-- He
served His disciples.
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It says, He took of his cloths--
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But I don't think He was naked,
but, I mean, He stripped off--
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The outer garment.
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The garment and took a
towel and wash their feet
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which wasn't just--
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in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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we have an
ordinance copying that but,
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you know, we're
usually pretty clean,
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in fact, we make sure we clean
our feet before the service.
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They were dusty from the roads
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and literally
he was the servant.
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And I've been bemused, in fact,
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in a way impressed to
know that once a year,
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the Pope of
Rome washes the feet,
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I think of, 14
or 20 or so priests.
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They really do that. So
it's one thing to be humble.
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I think humility
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is a characteristic of
Christianity, should be.
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True.
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But when you're talking
about what is acclaimed to be
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the central
edifice of Christendom,
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theologically I
could challenge that.
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But historically Rome and
the Roman Catholic Churches'
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claims and, you know, all
the pomp and circumstances
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that goes with them.
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They make some
pretty big claims.
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And through the middle ages
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they claimed to be
superior to the secular
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pals and many of the
great clashes of history
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between popes and
kings, "Who was the greatest?"
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There is a term that
you've introduced me to
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and we featured it in "Liberty
Magazine", subsidiarity. Yes.
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How is this now reformulated
for the modern world,
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some of this past
dynamic of who is top dog,
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to use a colloquial term?
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Sure.
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Subsidiarity, just to
give it a general definition,
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is that it
argues that in between
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two structured powers, whether
it's civil government or even,
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you know, in an
cooperation in so forth.
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The upper body
needs to recognize
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and basically
relegate to the lower body
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as much authority
and power as it can,
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so that body can
function and fulfill its tasks.
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So in essence
it's more of them--
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In political terms, it
is almost the exact opposite
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of federalism or
a substitute for it.
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Now federalism
basically would be,
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for example here in America,
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you have the
different states that we--
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It dealted the
pre-civil war, right?
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Yes. Okay.
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You have the states that
would come together and--
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They were sovereign
states that delegated
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that's the term
in the constitution--
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certain
responsibilities to the power
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that would out for all of them.
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But they were the
sovereignty as well. Yes.
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And so in essence one finds
that in the modern context,
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politically speaking,
federalism as a concept becomes
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the overarching
structure for many governments.
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Here in America we've grown
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to the point of a
dominant federalism.
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And so Roman
Catholicism is responding
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to that in
political terms by saying
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we advocate the
concept of subsidiarity.
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In other words,
federal government,
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you've got to
restrict and contain your power
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and allow us at this
level to fully function
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and fulfill all of our
duties to the fullest extent
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that we can without having
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your dominance
and control over us.
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In practical terms
basically what it means
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is that the church is
arguing for more of its freedom
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from the aspect of
big brother or federalism,
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the government
hanging over its shoulder.
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Maybe, maybe I've got it on,
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turned, it hit in
my mind but the way
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I've seen it is
that-- the Catholic Church
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assuming that it speaks
for the Christian Church
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and that it's received
maximum authority from Christ,
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regards itself as
superior to the civil powers.
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But it's allowed it to operate
separately and autonomously
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as long as when
push comes to shove
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it's an inferior
being. But am I wrong?
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No, I would say that there
is two ways of applying the term
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or the concept of subsidiarity.
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In the current
context the church recognizes
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that there is a dominant
federalism, here in America
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as well and as in other country
like Germany and so forth.
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What the church is trying to do
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is basically trying to
reestablish more of a balance--
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A relationship. Yes.
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So instead of the
church always being constrained
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and restricted by
federal government
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they're trying to say,
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"We need to
rebalance the picture
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and bring the church back up
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at least maybe not an
equal or not a superior
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but at least getting
close to having more power."
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In practice. Yeah.
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I think--and I've read
enough in these statements,
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I think they're
still reserving--
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In reality, any Christian
would reserve that, too.
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God's kingdom is above all--
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Correct. Human power.
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But as a-- Infatuation way.
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Yeah, in Seventh-day
Adventist or most protestants,
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we don't presume
that our church entity
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has innate authority other than
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that we're acknowledging Christ.
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But the Catholic
Church makes much of the keys
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of heaven and hell and
the authority of Peter.
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So they see themselves,
you know, as God is up here
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but they are the
representative of God
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and therefore
overall secular power.
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Correct. Than is the--
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But they're not
expressing it that way. Correct.
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I think in the theologically
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there are
reserving that but yes,
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they're trying to
enter into a world,
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realignment of
power which in essence
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is to move the
church up as an equal.
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Correct. And I would say--
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coming back to a
comment you made earlier,
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is that historically you
find that they church freely,
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overtly exercised its power
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and made
statements to the effect
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that it was the dominant
authority above the civil power.
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Now that we've coming to
the modern era of democracy,
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you find that
federalism as a concept
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like here in
America, unifying the states
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and the federal
government taking
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a neutral role towards religion
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to protect the
rights of citizens
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throughout the United States,
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is something that the Catholic
Church sees that as threat.
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For example, in practical terms
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if you have--
at the state level,
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you have the Catholic
Church and other evangelicals
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that would like
to see creationism
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taught in the public schools.
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The federal
government steps in and says,
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"No, you can't do that,
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that's a violation of
the establishment clause."
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And so those
conservative Christian groups
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see that as a threat.
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And so what they're
trying to do is rebalance
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the power by introducing
ideas of subsidiarity
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which would basically
argue, "Federal government,
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we recognized your role
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but you got to
recognize our role
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as a spiritual
entity and therefore
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we should have the
right to able to do this,
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to fulfill our
mission in society."
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So it is correct,
what you're stating,
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it's a concept
design to reposition--
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So it's to
elevate-- The church, yes.
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And even as they
express it generally
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to the government is to
move the church up not--
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something the church--
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the state can
dispose off easily.
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But no, we're a power to
be reckoned with it. Right.
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We have to give us some
prerogatives. Let me share--
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And I think that
explains, almost in nutshell,
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what's going on with
the healthcare debate
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in the Catholic hospitals
and the health mandate.
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Correct-- And, Lincoln,
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I'll come back to
that in just a second
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but let me give
them just a little bit
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of more historical background
within Catholic history
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regarding the
aspect of subsidiarity.
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There is a related concept,
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a sister concept,
known as Solidarity.
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Yes. I was going to
get onto that, thank you.
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Though there is
two balancing concept,
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Subsidiarity and Solidarity.
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I've talked a little
bit about subsidiarity--
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And not
necessarily just to be limited
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to Poland and the solidarity.
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Correct, yeah. A little bit
more theologically, isn't it?
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Yeah, both of
those concepts trace back
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to the time period
of 1870s and 1880s,
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Pope Leo XIII was the one
who in his first encyclical,
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talking about, in essence,
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talking about
the social situation,
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where you had the
modern industrial states
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that began to be
coming to existence,
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industrialization, communism
began to become a threat.
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The Catholic Church was
loosing many of their members
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to the communist moment
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because it
advocated labor rights.
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So the Catholic Church had
to find a response to that.
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And it was Bishop von
Ketteler is the individuals name
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that conceive of the idea
of subsidiarity and solidarity
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and in
contributing that to the Pope
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and other theologians of day.
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They began to write that out,
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even to the time
of 100 years later
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John Paul II and
"Centesimus Annus,"
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a 100 year commemoration
of that encyclical.
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"Rerum Novarum,"
is the actual term--
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What is that mean?
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Rerum Novarum,
literally means "Of new things."
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And so the
Catholic Church was saying,
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"We see a new
development in society
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with industrialization and
communism, the threat of it.
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And so we need to
find a way to conceptualize
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of how is the church
relate to the working class,
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the laboring body."
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And through Rerum Novarum--
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that's what they
actually began to argue
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for the rise of workers in
opposition to cooperations,
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businesses, industrialization,
and the state.
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But in the context,
in that very encyclical,
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"Rerum Novarum," it
talks about the need
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of workers to have a
day of rest on Sunday.
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And so 100 years later,
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John Paul II wrote
"Centesimus Annus,"
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which was a 100
year commemoration
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of that
encyclical "Rerum Novarum."
00:10:01.29\00:10:03.83
Centesimus Annus meaning a
100 years celebration of it.
00:10:03.86\00:10:06.80
And so we find that
through successive popes,
00:10:06.83\00:10:09.24
Pope Leo XIII, John
Paul II, Benedict, now--
00:10:09.27\00:10:11.94
Now Benedict with
"Caritas in veritate."
00:10:11.97\00:10:14.03
Yes, they are
developing and introducing
00:10:14.06\00:10:17.24
the concepts of
subsidiarity and solidarity
00:10:17.27\00:10:20.03
into society to restructure
the playing field in essence.
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And this latest document,
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I hadn't read that earlier one,
00:10:26.83\00:10:28.77
definitely he gets into
capital and labor issues
00:10:28.80\00:10:31.88
and again there's a societal
need for a workers rest.
00:10:31.91\00:10:37.28
Correct. And you're
readings on lot of these
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and obviously you studied it
for years to get your doctorate.
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Have you ever come across
any self awareness from Rome
00:10:43.87\00:10:48.36
that just looked
at the world events
00:10:48.39\00:10:51.74
since World War II descriptively
00:10:51.77\00:10:53.54
or even a little
bit before obviously,
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starting in-- was it 1980,
00:10:55.13\00:10:57.01
the Russian Revolution?
00:10:57.04\00:10:58.92
I think it was 1982 or 90.
00:10:58.95\00:11:03.55
It's obvious to me
that the Catholicism,
00:11:03.58\00:11:06.91
eastern orthodox or Roman
Catholicism, both of them.
00:11:06.94\00:11:10.82
It's only in those countries
that communism flourished.
00:11:10.85\00:11:14.34
Yes. There is no Protestant
or even other religion--
00:11:14.37\00:11:19.85
I mean, on the face
of it you might think so
00:11:19.88\00:11:21.30
because some Asian
countries became communist
00:11:21.33\00:11:24.46
but they were already usually
catholicized like Vietnam,
00:11:24.49\00:11:28.64
that was strongly
Roman Catholic, you know.
00:11:28.67\00:11:31.43
There's something about
the practice of those religions
00:11:31.46\00:11:34.91
that was made them vulnerable
to a communist appeal.
00:11:34.94\00:11:38.06
And I don't really know
the answer but you could--
00:11:38.09\00:11:40.29
it's just it's a
one-to-one correspondence.
00:11:40.32\00:11:43.63
There is a secular
author, now deceased,
00:11:43.66\00:11:46.93
Paul Blanchard was his
name. I know the name--
00:11:46.96\00:11:49.53
He was the reporter, a very
famous journalist at the time.
00:11:49.56\00:11:52.79
He actually went and chronicled
the events of Vatican 2,
00:11:52.82\00:11:56.62
but he had also written a book,
00:11:56.65\00:11:58.08
talking about communism,
00:11:58.11\00:11:59.48
Catholicism, and in
essence how he viewed it
00:11:59.51\00:12:02.57
as a threat to the society.
00:12:02.60\00:12:04.30
Some of the
parallels that he identified
00:12:04.33\00:12:06.15
between the two is
basically having the concept of
00:12:06.18\00:12:08.99
an organized
authority structure or figure.
00:12:09.02\00:12:12.16
You know, in
communism it's the brotherhood
00:12:12.19\00:12:13.92
a fraternal identity
among the working class.
00:12:13.95\00:12:17.85
And you have the proletariat.
00:12:17.88\00:12:19.56
And basically you have
00:12:19.59\00:12:20.96
that established
to government society.
00:12:20.99\00:12:23.21
So what he was
arguing in essence
00:12:23.24\00:12:24.78
was that Catholicism is
a simply a modified form
00:12:24.81\00:12:28.41
or different form of communism,
00:12:28.44\00:12:30.85
whereas communism
would be against religion,
00:12:30.88\00:12:33.48
Catholicism advocates religion,
00:12:33.51\00:12:35.62
you've got the structured tier
structure within Catholicism.
00:12:35.65\00:12:38.91
Those were some of his ideas
00:12:38.94\00:12:40.31
but one would look at
parallels between the two
00:12:40.34\00:12:43.12
from I guess you'd say,
00:12:43.15\00:12:44.62
historical as well as a
non religionist perspective.
00:12:44.65\00:12:48.62
That's how he
viewed things. Possible.
00:12:48.65\00:12:51.09
I wonder whether it
was an authoritarianism--
00:12:51.12\00:12:53.14
religious authoritarianism,
00:12:53.17\00:12:54.88
allied with state path
that didn't alienate people.
00:12:54.91\00:12:58.09
But anyhow there's
something going on.
00:12:58.12\00:13:01.08
It's very interesting
and even most recently
00:13:01.11\00:13:03.96
it's died down in the
last couple of decades.
00:13:03.99\00:13:06.62
But from World War II
until relative recently,
00:13:06.65\00:13:09.87
the communist party was
the strongest party in Italy
00:13:09.90\00:13:13.47
and this Christian socialist
00:13:13.50\00:13:15.53
have moved in a
little bit since--
00:13:15.56\00:13:17.23
but the
communist party ran things
00:13:17.26\00:13:19.30
and that's very odd right
at the seat of Roman power.
00:13:19.33\00:13:23.23
Let me revert that
briefly that solidarity--
00:13:23.26\00:13:25.11
Yeah, it's
solidarity and subsidiarity.
00:13:25.14\00:13:27.29
Solidarity is something--
00:13:27.32\00:13:28.69
Well, I see our time is
gone for the first half.
00:13:28.72\00:13:31.19
Let's break and be
back after the break
00:13:31.22\00:13:34.33
to continue this discussion
of very important concepts
00:13:34.36\00:13:38.38
developing within
the Roman Catholic Church
00:13:38.41\00:13:40.20
and of course implemented
with government's worldwide,
00:13:40.23\00:13:43.03
solidarity and subsidiarity.
00:13:43.06\00:13:46.00