Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000195A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is a program bringing you news, views, discussion 00:29 and up to date information on religious liberty events 00:32 in the United States and around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed. I'm editor of Liberty magazine. 00:38 And my guest on the program is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook. 00:42 Your doctorate is in church-state studies. 00:45 Correct. And I know a number of the-- 00:48 many good articles that you've written for Liberty magazine 00:51 have analyzed some of the developments 00:53 within Roman Catholicism of late. 00:55 Yes, in recent years. Yes. 00:56 You know, things like dealing with, 00:58 there's one dealing with the crucifix conundrum in Italy, 01:01 you know, where the idle 01:03 of the crucifix is something, that is displayed 01:04 in public schools and in of course 01:06 and obviously in churches 01:08 and other public institutions in essence. 01:11 And so there have been debate there in-- 01:14 two, three years ago, recent years, 01:16 regarding an individual lady that was atheist in her mindset 01:21 and she felt that it was an offence 01:23 to her child in public school to have the crucifix displayed. 01:26 So in Rome, or in Italy, they were removing 01:28 the crucifixes from schools, and the Catholic Church 01:31 was caught on the separation of church and state, petard. 01:35 Correct. Let me introduce though on that point Lincoln, 01:38 because this is very interesting. 01:40 On the surface one would say, okay, 01:41 it's a religious liberty issue, which it is. 01:44 But many people would simply look at it 01:46 and think that's all that it is. 01:48 But at the deeper level, you find that there 01:51 is language that the church uses to argue to maintain 01:55 the crucifix as a religious symbol 01:57 displayed in public places, and they use language 02:00 from "Dignitatis Humanae" from Vatican II. 02:03 They argue and say that according to, 02:04 I think and believe its article 6, 02:06 that talks about the religion should play a dominant role 02:10 in society and it's the responsibility 02:12 of government to proactively support religion. 02:15 And so basically, what they argue is that 02:17 in the cultural context of Italy 02:19 and other Roman Catholic countries, 02:21 that have been Catholic, dominant Catholic for centuries. 02:24 They say, it's not so much a religious issue. 02:26 It's not religious dominance, its just part of the culture. 02:29 So it needs to stay. Well, yes. 02:32 And in the United States the Supreme Court 02:34 pretty much took the same take. 02:36 Regarding the Sunday. 02:38 No, regarding cultural expressions of religions, 02:41 some statuary and things in public places. 02:46 They've called it ceremonial deism. 02:49 In other words religion that's just woven 02:51 in to the everyday life and thinking of people. 02:54 It is religion but it's sort of lost its religious particular. 03:00 It's now our cultural expression-- 03:01 That's the same argument that the Supreme Court 03:02 used back in the early 1960's regarding Sunday. 03:05 And you know, basically having Sunday 03:07 as the day of rest and so forth. 03:08 And I would make the statement as well, 03:11 in more recent years, that's the same argument 03:13 that people are using in Europe regarding a day of rest. 03:16 Yes. And we probably have a whole article on that. 03:20 But no, I don't think it's a good argument. 03:22 I think it's a logical argument because yes, 03:26 I don't know about in Rome or in Italy, I could guess. 03:29 But I know in the United States certain statuaries and even, 03:34 that made a lot of it lately, but even things like 03:38 in the Declaration of Independence, 03:39 you know, it speaks about Creator God. 03:42 That really is meaningless to most people 03:44 and that's the sad thing. 03:48 I'm sorry, I threw that in because 03:50 we know the Jefferson and others who put that in, 03:52 they had a different meaning of God. Correct. 03:54 But these public displays of religion, 03:56 that are just sort of a wallpaper now, 03:59 have lost their meaning and that's sad because 04:01 religion without meaning is empty ceremonies, 04:05 you see now, God condemned that. 04:06 Yes, correct. 04:08 So we want correct understanding 04:09 of religious symbols and usage. 04:11 We just don't want it being advanced by the state. 04:13 Correct. So that's the problem. 04:16 But I think the Catholic Church 04:17 are reaching into society through this logic though. 04:20 You know, Lin, let me mention this, 04:22 kind of as a additional factor that weighs into it, 04:25 is that from the Catholic Church's perspective, 04:27 their concern is that with so much 04:30 what they view as prevalence of secularism. 04:32 They're wanting to maintain some kind of identity or roots 04:37 tied into religion in the public square. 04:40 And so in essence, so you have institutions, public schools. 04:43 In Italy, they believe that the crucifix should remain. 04:46 Again, they're trying to say it's not because the church 04:48 is trying to dominate the public square, 04:50 but they are simply saying its part of their cultural identity. 04:53 And so, they are wanting to do that because 04:55 in some countries like in France, 04:58 they've got more of what's called laicité. 05:01 Laicité. Yes. 05:02 And basically what it means that we're secular. 05:03 It means they're removing it all. 05:05 Yes, pure secular state. 05:06 That's what the Catholic Church-- 05:08 Well, I give up trying to push you in other direction. 05:10 Let's talk about this. 05:13 Pope Benedict who was once Cardinal Ratzinger, 05:17 he's pretty much staked his career 05:19 in my view on attacking secularism. 05:24 In the private discussion with you, 05:26 I heard more of that during Vatican II, 05:30 which he was a participant in, 05:31 that was his pre-occupation back then. 05:34 And he's more, more coming out against secularism, 05:38 seeing it as the enemy in Canaanite. 05:43 And I'm not so convinced on that. 05:44 Secularism is the target for religion because 05:48 he want to influence the secularists for religion. 05:51 But I don't see the greatest enemies of faith practice, 05:56 or of any particular faith 05:58 is really from those of a secular mindset. 06:00 Correct. They tend to ignore you, 06:02 not attack you viciously. 06:04 You know, one example that I often times 06:06 try to share with people so they can understand 06:08 the practical way, the theories we are talking about, 06:11 how does it play out in practical life. 06:14 In France, there is more of an avert secularism, 06:17 laicité as you referred to and we were talking about, 06:20 where basically, they don't allow 06:22 the public expression or display of religious symbols. 06:26 They don't want religion in the public sphere. 06:28 Correct. Okay now. 06:29 Where the United States swaddle it little differently, 06:32 it's the separation of church and state. 06:34 And of late had the courts interpret it, 06:37 they don't want the state showing the religious displays 06:40 or backstopping religious expression. 06:43 They want it out of that business. 06:44 But they allow it in public square and society. 06:47 It's been encouraged in the United States society 06:50 that religion is part of the open roof of how we 06:53 function between individuals and public organizations. 06:59 And you know, in a practical way 07:00 I tell people, you know, your concern is that you feel 07:04 that God has been taken out of the constitution 07:07 and out of America and so forth. 07:08 I say, but has the state ever stepped in to say, 07:11 you can't pray either on the public square, 07:13 on the square in town downtown, or in the schools. 07:16 The constitution says, it shouldn't restrict 07:18 expressions of religion or free exercise. 07:21 Correct. So we could say that in America, 07:23 it is not such a secularized country 07:27 as may be in France and as some people like 07:30 Catholics and others would try to portray 07:32 that there's this big giant of secularism 07:35 that is restricting religious expression. 07:38 I think they are putting it more in a balanced perspective, 07:41 is that the conservative religious groups desire 07:44 to dominate and control more of the public square 07:48 through government, and what they're sensing 07:51 that resistance, that they're sensing there 07:52 is what they are identifying as secularism. 07:55 Yes. But in France, 07:56 and we need to explain France a little bit more. 07:58 I think, you know, France has a great Catholic tradition. 08:02 A very strong Catholic country which caused the problem-- 08:07 not caused but was part 08:08 of the causation of the French revelation. 08:11 The church and the state were one and the same. Yes. 08:16 And there were great abuses both on the religious front 08:20 and the civil rulers themselves were very 08:23 insensitive to the needs of the poor and so. 08:25 And so when the deluge came as what was it Louis the XIV says 08:30 I pray after me, the deluge. 08:32 And the deluge came it was just an uprising 08:35 from mostly the middle class and the poor, they fed up. 08:39 They weren't primarily fed up with religion, 08:42 but because religion was so identified with the state. 08:45 When they rose up and overthrew the rulers, they hated religion. 08:48 They got rid of the clerics, and the aristocracy, and so on. 08:51 And 'course Napoleon Bonaparte came out of that, eventually. 08:55 But I think that's laid the tradition in France 08:59 for a sense of antagonism toward organized religion. 09:02 Correct. And the present French state 09:06 is pretty much formalized this idea 09:09 that religion is not to be publicly discussed. 09:12 You're allowed to hold your religious views, 09:14 but we don't want to hear about it. 09:15 We don't want it in part of our society and of course, 09:18 with the rise of immigrants in France, 09:22 mostly Muslims, there's a cultural unease. 09:26 And so again they've got more of a reason 09:28 to keep religion out of the public sphere. 09:30 They want to remove it because it's a discordant element. 09:33 Correct. But at the same time, 09:34 this is my deeply held view. 09:36 I think, when the chips are down in France, 09:40 people have another religious identity. 09:43 They don't practice religion. 09:45 They're thoroughly secular in their day-to-day thinking, 09:48 but they know that they are by and large Christians. 09:51 They know that it's a church that they will fall back on, 09:54 it will probably be the Catholic church 09:56 not a Protestant country. Correct. 09:58 And so, I see Rome playing on this 10:01 and pushing against the secularist tendencies 10:04 in France because there's a lot at stake. 10:07 There another factor that one would need to take 10:10 into consideration on that dynamic there, 10:12 not only in France but even in Spain. 10:14 Just within a few years ago, 10:16 I was visiting there doing research. 10:18 And Spain is looked upon as roughly around 10:22 88 to 90% Roman Catholic identify themselves as that. 10:26 There is a very avert secular bent to society where people, 10:31 they identify themselves as Catholic, 10:32 but they don't go to church or the mass. 10:34 Now, Benedict was there visiting and he spoke 10:37 in two of the major cities talking about the need 10:39 to restrict the advances of secularism and so forth. 10:43 He's looking at it more so from not only 10:46 the desire to keep the Spanish populist 10:50 and their identity with Roman Catholicism, 10:53 but the other dynamic that play's into it that 10:55 he recognizes is the aspect of democracy. 10:58 When democracy plays its role in politics, 11:01 you have such a diverse body of different 11:03 not only different political groups 11:05 but different religious groups seeking expression 11:07 through government or with government. 11:09 And what Catholicism in more modern times has developed 11:13 is what's called regulated democracy, 11:15 whether attempting to recognize democracy 11:18 as the dominant political structure, 11:20 but finding a way to regulate it so that 11:22 in it's public expression it reflects Roman Catholic values. 11:26 Interesting. And that may get into you, 11:29 another topic of subsidiarity and-- 11:31 Well, yeah, little late. 11:33 This program was to be about subsidiarity, 11:35 but let's continue on the other lot, secularism. 11:39 I've never acknowledged publicly that we've shifted titles, 11:41 but there are many things that you and I can talk about. 11:44 But let's continue to talk about secularism 11:46 'cause it is a preoccupation of this present Pope. 11:50 And more than that, it's a preoccupation 11:52 of many Christians, particularly 11:55 the Protestant Christians in North America. 11:56 Correct. I read from time to time, 11:59 that they're so antagonist to secularism, 12:02 that they say it's now become an essence 12:04 to religion which I think is an overstatement. 12:08 It's important perhaps, in the public sphere, 12:12 but it's not a regulated formularized 12:17 holding like a religious viewpoint is. 12:20 Secularism is, you know, some people-- 12:23 It's more like a world view-- 12:24 Might be a radical secularist like a communist 12:26 who has an agenda, but many other people 12:29 they just go in their own way. 12:30 They don't want to deal with religion. 12:32 So they lumped them all in as a formularized religious, 12:36 see their religion I think is to miss the point. 12:38 Correct. But the Roman Catholic Church 12:42 and Protestants in North America, 12:44 they see secularism as a mortal enemy 12:46 that they have to attack rather than the early Christians, 12:50 these are the target group to witness to and to cuddle up 12:54 them on to your side, that thinking has disappeared. 12:56 Correct. And I think that you know, 12:58 at least from a Roman Catholic perspective, 13:00 one would be able to say that in the Catholic world view, 13:05 you have religion or church 13:07 and then you have government or state. 13:10 And they don't see any third group 13:13 or party existing there. 13:15 And that might be something that you may want to explore, 13:17 you know, just 'cause it's something really-- 13:20 Yeah. We need to talk about that 13:21 and I've just noticed our time is drifting away very quickly. 13:24 So stay with us, we will be back 13:26 after a break to continue this discussion 13:28 of secularism and the churches. |
Revised 2014-12-17