Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is a program bringing
you news, views, discussion
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and up to date information
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed.
I'm editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook.
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Your doctorate is in
church-state studies.
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Correct. And I
know a number of the--
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many good articles that you've
written for Liberty magazine
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have analyzed some
of the developments
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within Roman
Catholicism of late.
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Yes, in recent years. Yes.
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You know, things
like dealing with,
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there's one dealing with
the crucifix conundrum in Italy,
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you know, where the idle
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of the crucifix is
something, that is displayed
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in public
schools and in of course
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and obviously in churches
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and other public
institutions in essence.
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And so there have
been debate there in--
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two, three years
ago, recent years,
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regarding an individual lady
that was atheist in her mindset
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and she felt
that it was an offence
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to her child in public school
to have the crucifix displayed.
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So in Rome, or in
Italy, they were removing
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the crucifixes from
schools, and the Catholic Church
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was caught on the separation
of church and state, petard.
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Correct. Let me introduce
though on that point Lincoln,
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because this is
very interesting.
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On the surface
one would say, okay,
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it's a religious
liberty issue, which it is.
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But many people
would simply look at it
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and think that's all that it is.
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But at the deeper
level, you find that there
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is language that the
church uses to argue to maintain
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the crucifix as
a religious symbol
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displayed in public
places, and they use language
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from "Dignitatis
Humanae" from Vatican II.
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They argue and
say that according to,
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I think and
believe its article 6,
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that talks about the religion
should play a dominant role
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in society and
it's the responsibility
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of government to
proactively support religion.
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And so basically,
what they argue is that
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in the cultural context of Italy
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and other Roman
Catholic countries,
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that have been Catholic,
dominant Catholic for centuries.
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They say, it's not so
much a religious issue.
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It's not religious dominance,
its just part of the culture.
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So it needs to stay. Well, yes.
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And in the United
States the Supreme Court
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pretty much took the same take.
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Regarding the Sunday.
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No, regarding cultural
expressions of religions,
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some statuary and
things in public places.
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They've called
it ceremonial deism.
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In other words
religion that's just woven
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in to the everyday
life and thinking of people.
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It is religion but it's sort of
lost its religious particular.
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It's now our
cultural expression--
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That's the same
argument that the Supreme Court
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used back in the early
1960's regarding Sunday.
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And you know,
basically having Sunday
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as the day of rest and so forth.
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And I would make
the statement as well,
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in more recent years,
that's the same argument
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that people are using in
Europe regarding a day of rest.
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Yes. And we probably
have a whole article on that.
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But no, I don't
think it's a good argument.
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I think it's a
logical argument because yes,
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I don't know about in Rome
or in Italy, I could guess.
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But I know in the United States
certain statuaries and even,
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that made a lot of it
lately, but even things like
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in the
Declaration of Independence,
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you know, it
speaks about Creator God.
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That really is
meaningless to most people
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and that's the sad thing.
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I'm sorry, I
threw that in because
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we know the Jefferson
and others who put that in,
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they had a different
meaning of God. Correct.
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But these public
displays of religion,
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that are just sort
of a wallpaper now,
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have lost their
meaning and that's sad because
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religion without
meaning is empty ceremonies,
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you see now, God condemned that.
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Yes, correct.
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So we want correct understanding
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of religious symbols and usage.
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We just don't want it
being advanced by the state.
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Correct. So that's the problem.
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But I think the Catholic Church
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are reaching into society
through this logic though.
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You know, Lin,
let me mention this,
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kind of as a additional
factor that weighs into it,
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is that from the
Catholic Church's perspective,
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their concern is
that with so much
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what they view as
prevalence of secularism.
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They're wanting to maintain
some kind of identity or roots
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tied into religion
in the public square.
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And so in essence, so you have
institutions, public schools.
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In Italy, they believe
that the crucifix should remain.
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Again, they're trying to
say it's not because the church
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is trying to
dominate the public square,
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but they are simply saying its
part of their cultural identity.
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And so, they are
wanting to do that because
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in some
countries like in France,
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they've got more of
what's called laicité.
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Laicité. Yes.
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And basically what it
means that we're secular.
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It means
they're removing it all.
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Yes, pure secular state.
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That's what the
Catholic Church--
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Well, I give up trying to
push you in other direction.
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Let's talk about this.
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Pope Benedict who was
once Cardinal Ratzinger,
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he's pretty much
staked his career
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in my view on
attacking secularism.
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In the private
discussion with you,
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I heard more of
that during Vatican II,
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which he was a participant in,
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that was his
pre-occupation back then.
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And he's more, more
coming out against secularism,
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seeing it as the
enemy in Canaanite.
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And I'm not so
convinced on that.
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Secularism is the
target for religion because
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he want to influence the
secularists for religion.
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But I don't see the greatest
enemies of faith practice,
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or of any particular faith
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is really from those
of a secular mindset.
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Correct. They
tend to ignore you,
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not attack you viciously.
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You know, one
example that I often times
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try to share with
people so they can understand
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the practical way, the
theories we are talking about,
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how does it play
out in practical life.
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In France, there is
more of an avert secularism,
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laicité as you referred
to and we were talking about,
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where
basically, they don't allow
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the public expression or
display of religious symbols.
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They don't want
religion in the public sphere.
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Correct. Okay now.
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Where the United States
swaddle it little differently,
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it's the separation
of church and state.
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And of late had the
courts interpret it,
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they don't want the state
showing the religious displays
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or backstopping
religious expression.
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They want it out
of that business.
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But they allow it in
public square and society.
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It's been encouraged in
the United States society
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that religion is part
of the open roof of how we
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function between individuals
and public organizations.
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And you know, in a practical way
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I tell people, you know,
your concern is that you feel
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that God has been
taken out of the constitution
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and out of America and so forth.
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I say, but has the
state ever stepped in to say,
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you can't pray
either on the public square,
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on the square in town
downtown, or in the schools.
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The constitution
says, it shouldn't restrict
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expressions of
religion or free exercise.
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Correct. So we
could say that in America,
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it is not such a
secularized country
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as may be in France
and as some people like
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Catholics and
others would try to portray
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that there's this
big giant of secularism
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that is restricting
religious expression.
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I think they are putting it
more in a balanced perspective,
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is that the conservative
religious groups desire
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to dominate and control
more of the public square
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through government,
and what they're sensing
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that resistance,
that they're sensing there
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is what they are
identifying as secularism.
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Yes. But in France,
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and we need to explain
France a little bit more.
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I think, you know, France
has a great Catholic tradition.
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A very strong Catholic country
which caused the problem--
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not caused but was part
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of the causation of
the French revelation.
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The church and the state
were one and the same. Yes.
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And there were great abuses
both on the religious front
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and the civil
rulers themselves were very
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insensitive to the
needs of the poor and so.
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And so when the deluge came as
what was it Louis the XIV says
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I pray after me, the deluge.
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And the deluge came
it was just an uprising
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from mostly the middle
class and the poor, they fed up.
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They weren't
primarily fed up with religion,
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but because religion was
so identified with the state.
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When they rose up and overthrew
the rulers, they hated religion.
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They got rid of the clerics,
and the aristocracy, and so on.
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And 'course Napoleon Bonaparte
came out of that, eventually.
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But I think that's
laid the tradition in France
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for a sense of antagonism
toward organized religion.
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Correct. And the
present French state
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is pretty much
formalized this idea
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that religion is not
to be publicly discussed.
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You're allowed to
hold your religious views,
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but we don't
want to hear about it.
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We don't want it in part
of our society and of course,
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with the rise of
immigrants in France,
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mostly Muslims,
there's a cultural unease.
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And so again
they've got more of a reason
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to keep religion out
of the public sphere.
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They want to remove it because
it's a discordant element.
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Correct. But at the same time,
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this is my deeply held view.
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I think, when the
chips are down in France,
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people have
another religious identity.
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They don't practice religion.
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They're thoroughly secular
in their day-to-day thinking,
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but they know that they
are by and large Christians.
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They know that it's a church
that they will fall back on,
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it will probably
be the Catholic church
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not a Protestant
country. Correct.
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And so, I see
Rome playing on this
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and pushing against
the secularist tendencies
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in France because
there's a lot at stake.
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There another factor
that one would need to take
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into consideration
on that dynamic there,
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not only in
France but even in Spain.
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Just within a few years ago,
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I was visiting
there doing research.
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And Spain is looked
upon as roughly around
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88 to 90% Roman Catholic
identify themselves as that.
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There is a very avert secular
bent to society where people,
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they identify
themselves as Catholic,
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but they don't go
to church or the mass.
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Now, Benedict was
there visiting and he spoke
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in two of the major
cities talking about the need
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to restrict the advances
of secularism and so forth.
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He's looking at it
more so from not only
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the desire to keep
the Spanish populist
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and their identity
with Roman Catholicism,
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but the other dynamic
that play's into it that
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he recognizes is
the aspect of democracy.
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When democracy plays
its role in politics,
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you have such a
diverse body of different
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not only
different political groups
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but different religious
groups seeking expression
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through government
or with government.
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And what Catholicism in
more modern times has developed
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is what's called
regulated democracy,
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whether attempting
to recognize democracy
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as the dominant
political structure,
00:11:18.74\00:11:20.59
but finding a way
to regulate it so that
00:11:20.62\00:11:22.61
in it's public expression it
reflects Roman Catholic values.
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Interesting. And
that may get into you,
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another topic of
subsidiarity and--
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Well, yeah, little late.
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This program was to
be about subsidiarity,
00:11:33.58\00:11:35.52
but let's continue on
the other lot, secularism.
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I've never acknowledged publicly
that we've shifted titles,
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but there are many things
that you and I can talk about.
00:11:41.69\00:11:44.10
But let's continue
to talk about secularism
00:11:44.13\00:11:46.38
'cause it is a preoccupation
of this present Pope.
00:11:46.41\00:11:50.44
And more than that,
it's a preoccupation
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of many Christians, particularly
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the Protestant
Christians in North America.
00:11:55.01\00:11:56.93
Correct. I read
from time to time,
00:11:56.96\00:11:59.60
that they're so
antagonist to secularism,
00:11:59.63\00:12:02.03
that they say it's
now become an essence
00:12:02.06\00:12:04.55
to religion which I
think is an overstatement.
00:12:04.58\00:12:08.57
It's important
perhaps, in the public sphere,
00:12:08.60\00:12:12.55
but it's not a
regulated formularized
00:12:12.58\00:12:17.92
holding like a
religious viewpoint is.
00:12:17.95\00:12:20.24
Secularism is, you
know, some people--
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It's more like a world view--
00:12:23.33\00:12:24.70
Might be a radical
secularist like a communist
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who has an agenda,
but many other people
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they just go in their own way.
00:12:29.22\00:12:30.59
They don't want to
deal with religion.
00:12:30.62\00:12:32.30
So they lumped them all in
as a formularized religious,
00:12:32.33\00:12:36.01
see their religion I
think is to miss the point.
00:12:36.04\00:12:38.39
Correct. But the
Roman Catholic Church
00:12:38.42\00:12:42.40
and Protestants
in North America,
00:12:42.43\00:12:44.12
they see
secularism as a mortal enemy
00:12:44.15\00:12:46.56
that they have to attack rather
than the early Christians,
00:12:46.59\00:12:50.31
these are the target group
to witness to and to cuddle up
00:12:50.34\00:12:54.28
them on to your side,
that thinking has disappeared.
00:12:54.31\00:12:56.90
Correct. And I
think that you know,
00:12:56.93\00:12:58.92
at least from a
Roman Catholic perspective,
00:12:58.95\00:13:00.95
one would be able to say
that in the Catholic world view,
00:13:00.98\00:13:05.79
you have religion or church
00:13:05.82\00:13:07.96
and then you have
government or state.
00:13:07.99\00:13:10.04
And they don't
see any third group
00:13:10.07\00:13:13.36
or party existing there.
00:13:13.39\00:13:15.40
And that might be something
that you may want to explore,
00:13:15.43\00:13:17.91
you know, just 'cause
it's something really--
00:13:17.94\00:13:20.30
Yeah. We need to talk about that
00:13:20.33\00:13:21.70
and I've just noticed our time
is drifting away very quickly.
00:13:21.73\00:13:24.54
So stay with us, we will be back
00:13:24.57\00:13:25.98
after a break to
continue this discussion
00:13:26.01\00:13:28.02
of secularism and the churches.
00:13:28.05\00:13:30.20