Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000194A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is a program bringing you 00:25 discussion, news, views and up to date information 00:28 on Religious Liberty events around the world. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on this program is Dr. Ed Cook. 00:41 A good friend and contributed to Liberty magazine 00:44 for quite some years now. 00:45 But you are new in one sense, you are newly minted doctor. 00:49 Yeah, that's true. 00:50 Just graduated from Baylor University 00:51 with church-state studies and new with you 00:55 is your doctorate, your doctoral thesis. 00:58 Yeah, that's correct I worked-- 01:00 the title of it is "Roman Catholic 01:01 hit Germany and religious freedom-- 01:03 In Germany, I mean, I lived through the Cold War, 01:06 I seem to remember that word-- was it the Soviet Union 01:10 or the United States or both? 01:11 They were hegemons. Yes. 01:13 And that the term actually refers 01:15 to that is the aspect of territorialism, 01:18 trying to maintain or establish their territory. 01:20 Their control. Correct. 01:21 An element of over lordship or control, isn't it? 01:25 And in the-- my dissertation, 01:27 which is now becoming a book forthcoming in 01:29 about a month it will be published. 01:31 But basically its dealing 01:32 with the idea of religious freedom 01:34 and how the Catholic church does advocate that today, 01:37 but, you know, something that I think all of us recognizes it, 01:40 its not just any religious group advocating religious freedom. 01:44 It's how they define it that is the important thing. 01:45 Absolutely, because before the program 01:49 we were casting about, 01:50 is there any religion or state for that matter? 01:54 But is anybody against religious liberty. 01:56 I don't know, of anyone that's ever spoken against it. 01:59 Well, I take that back, one of the Popes, was it Pius...? 02:03 The XII. The XII. 02:05 He spoke about that pernicious, 02:06 I think, wasn't it pernicious concept? 02:07 Yeah, correct, and of separation of churches 02:10 and state of freedom of conscience in essence. 02:12 And thereby hangs the tail called Vatican II. 02:16 Something big happened 02:18 in the Roman Catholic Church starting in 1962, 02:21 and when did it end? 02:22 1965. So was this a three-year long church council? 02:29 Only one of 21 by some numerations 02:33 of the Christian Church from its beginning, 02:35 getting together to decide major things, 02:37 but, you know, I think some of those are up for grabs, 02:41 you know, why they were called or what they-- 02:43 whether they were a huge council. 02:44 But importantly this is only 02:46 the second one held in the Vatican. Correct. 02:50 And Vatican I being in roughly 1870's in that time 1871. 02:53 Yeah, and it didn't deal with such matters 02:55 of big importance as I remember. 02:56 Actually, in 1871 Vatican I, actually one of the issues 03:00 that they ended up dealing with was 03:02 the infallibility of their Pope. 03:03 It's true. I tell that is a big issue. 03:05 And they did establish it, yeah. Right, you've gotten that. 03:06 But it was sort of introspective. Correct. 03:09 Yeah, it was more within. That was I got it. 03:10 It was an internal doctrinal thing where-- 03:13 although it did go to the reasons 03:15 for the ecumenical council because Vatican's I and II 03:19 claimed to be ecumenical council, 03:21 Which is an interesting claim because 03:23 by the time we get to the Vatican's, 03:25 this is Catholicism, which is not all of Christianity. 03:28 And yet they call an ecumenical council. 03:31 In other words, its determinations 03:33 were to apply to all of Christendom. 03:34 Correct. Which is not enforceable, 03:39 but, yes the issue of papal infallibility 03:42 is very big for Protestants. 03:44 And yet doesn't go back as far as we imagine. Correct. 03:47 Now, you know, I think the assumption 03:50 of the power of the papacy was always along those lines 03:53 but it wasn't formally spelled out 03:55 till that First Vatican Council. Correct. 03:57 And that was something that at the time 03:59 in Vatican Council I in 1871, 04:02 being that the council dealt with the issue in the years 04:06 and in fact, I could say even the centuries preceding that, 04:09 there had been a counter argument 04:11 within the church called conciliarism 04:14 where basically, they understood that the Pope 04:16 did not have the complete authority as infallible, 04:19 but he had to be among acolyte, peers in other words, 04:23 other bishops and archbishops and they in a council 04:26 they would come to decisions regarding the church. 04:28 But in a Vatican Council I 1871, 04:31 they ended up making the decision 04:32 and advocating the idea of people and fallibility. 04:36 I was listening to a BBC program 04:38 a couple nights ago on Vatican II actually. 04:41 And they had a Roman Catholic nun there, 04:44 who said she was a loyal Catholic and then 04:46 there was a conservative Catholic theologian 04:49 on the program with her. 04:50 So they got to debating 04:51 what the significance of Vatican II 04:54 and she said she was loyal to the church 05:00 and she accepted Vatican II and the authority of the church. 05:05 And then at one point she said, 05:07 but, you know-- the interviewer said 05:09 but the Pope has said so and so. 05:10 And she says, well, you know, 05:12 I think the Holy Father is wrong, 05:14 and theologian says, there we have it. 05:19 Yeah. 05:20 And see, that I think that ultimately within Catholicism, 05:23 one can recognize by asking questions like that 05:27 what's the final-- the bottom root issue is that, 05:30 you know, if they are certain, 05:31 the tradition of the church can be explained in study 05:34 through the writings of the fathers, 05:35 the Nicene Fathers, the Ante-Nicene Fathers, 05:38 the tradition of the church and councils 05:40 that have been-- have met since that time-- 05:41 You dropped some toes turfs there, 05:43 Nicene Fathers, Ante-Nicene. 05:44 You really need to fledge that out for our viewers. 05:48 The council of Nicaea, historically-- 05:50 Denice, right. Yes, correct. 05:51 Modern Denice, France. 05:52 Yes, the Nicene Fathers are those that are recognized 05:57 as during that time period-- 06:00 writings of theologians for us that are non-Catholics, 06:03 we would look at it maybe as commentary. 06:04 But for Catholics, they look at that as something 06:06 that is authoritative in the tradition of the church. 06:09 So you have the Ante-Nicene fathers 06:12 which were those that wrote prior to that time. 06:14 They were looked on many times as the Early Christian Fathers 06:17 of the first couple of centuries. 06:19 And we're now getting to a major theological holding 06:26 in Roman Catholicism, I think pre and post Vatican II. 06:30 That yes, they hold the Holy Scriptures, 06:33 but certainly an equal authority 06:36 is what the Church Fathers held through the ages, right? 06:39 Correct. So there's a huge dependence, 06:42 to use another term on tradition-- 06:44 what the leaders thought at different points 06:48 becomes determinative. 06:49 Yes. And you know, that's-- 06:51 I would say one of the crux issues within Catholicism, 06:55 in Chapter 2 of my book I deal a little bit with this, 06:58 is basically can one as a Roman Catholic, 07:01 if I were a Roman Catholic, 07:02 could I say that Vatican II represents 07:05 the historical tradition of the church, 07:07 or the writings of the fathers and cyclicals of the Popes, 07:10 and the crux-- the central one of the fact is 07:13 I can't say that--the most hardly debated document 07:16 coming forth from Vatican II was "Dignitatis Humanae" 07:19 dealing with religious freedom and-- 07:21 Now what is "Dignitatis Humanae" mean? 07:23 "Dignitatis Humanae" is the Latin term meaning 07:26 "the dignity of the human person." 07:27 Dignity of man. 07:28 Yes, correct, and so based on that 07:30 the Catholic Church argues that religious freedom 07:32 needs to recognize the dignity of the human person 07:35 just as in "Humanae Vitae," 07:37 the church was saying the human person, 07:39 the human life is something that's sacred. 07:42 So they would say that the dignity 07:43 of the human person is what should define religious freedom. 07:46 And that's how they developed this document 07:48 that has about 17 different main article with sections-- 07:51 That's an important document. 07:53 And overall, I think it's an admirable 07:56 not a restatement for them 07:58 but a restatement for many people 08:00 on the huge general principle of religious liberty. 08:05 Was it easily adopted? No, it was not. 08:08 There was a lot of debate it went through. 08:10 Actually, eight different drafts leading up 08:12 to the final one that was voted. 08:14 When it was voted they had more than 08:16 2,000 of the bishops that actually voted it, 08:19 and they were only like around 72 that were against it. 08:23 When it settled, but as I remember 08:26 it was nip and tuck for years even. Correct. 08:29 And once-- better remember my history. 08:32 Was it that the-- some leading figure, 08:36 was it even the Pope when they tilted 08:37 that they might accept, then suddenly 08:39 the works on fell in the line, but until the last-- 08:40 That was John XXIII, the Pope that-- 08:44 Most of the preliminary votes were at best equally divided. 08:47 Correct. End result is a little misleading I think, 08:51 but it was at the end voted overwhelmingly in favor. 08:55 Correct. And that's why I mentioned 08:57 that there were eight different drafts of it, 08:58 as it went through those drafts, 09:00 there was debate across the spectrum 09:02 and groups were divided against-- 09:04 where the bishops were divided against one another. 09:06 And the final end product is that when John XXIII 09:09 stepped in and gave moral support for it, 09:12 then you found the bishops going ahead 09:13 and lining up and more than 2,000 voting to support it. 09:16 Yeah, I can't remember if it was him 09:17 personally or one of the curia, 09:19 but I know that there was huge signal 09:21 from the leadership and then the vote suddenly polarized. 09:23 Yeah. 09:26 And you've most recently studied this, 09:28 but it seems to me that an American prelate 09:32 I think it was-- Jesuit John Courtney Murray. 09:34 Yes, he was central to this-- 09:37 He actually had drafted the main document. Correct. 09:41 And John Courtney Murray Jesuit theologian in America, 09:44 Woodstock College is founded through his influence. 09:48 But back in the 50's, 09:50 he was involved in actually defending the Catholic position, 09:54 traditional Catholic position which basically argues 09:57 that the Catholic Church as the true faith has the right 10:01 to be the established religion in the state, 10:03 and other groups can be granted toleration, 10:06 if it is something that basically 10:07 is in harmony with a common good. 10:09 In other words, if there's more benefit 10:11 by granting them toleration 10:12 do so to maintain societal peace. 10:15 Now Courtney Murray had maintained 10:17 that position through the early 50's, 10:19 as he started studying more about the topic 10:21 from an American perspective and the influence 10:23 of the founding fathers, the first amendment. 10:25 He started developing some ideas 10:27 and looking into the tradition of the Catholic Church, 10:29 their historical tradition to find out 10:31 if there was something that would harmonize 10:33 with what he believed 10:35 was more of an American position on the freedom of religion. 10:38 So it's not illegitimate, is it to then describe 10:42 Vatican II as far as religious liberty 10:44 is really being a by-product 10:46 of American views on religious liberty 10:48 making their way in to the-- 10:50 I would say to some extent 10:52 but there again one needs to be cautious 10:53 because for example, the founding fathers 10:57 like Jefferson who influenced medicine 10:59 in the writing of the first amendment. 11:01 You have an enlightenment philosophy 11:02 that under girded the law. 11:04 Oh, no, it's with them. Yeah. 11:07 But Vatican II was sort of synthesizing that existing 11:09 American concept of what personal freedom was 11:13 that's when it was picked up by a Catholic understanding. 11:17 No, I don't think they-- in fact, they probably 11:20 run a mile if they thought it was a secular backdrop. 11:23 But I wouldn't say that there is a lot of confusion 11:27 in this area of church and state here in America, 11:29 among not only constitutional scholars 11:32 but others that study the field. 11:34 And they tend to equate the document 11:37 "Dignitatis Humanae" for the catholic position 11:39 as basically being exactly a harmony hand in glove fit 11:44 with the founding fathers concept of religious freedom 11:47 as annunciated in the first amendment. 11:49 There's some parallels 11:51 but there's some very distinct foundational differences. 11:53 Absolutely, and that's really 11:55 what I want to bring out in this program. 11:57 You're thinking exactly like me. 11:59 We need to-- it was a positive move 12:01 as far as Roman Catholicism because in many countries, 12:05 you know, they never had the whip hand 12:06 in the United States, but in Latin America 12:08 they were actively inciting the states to persecute people 12:13 who differed from the religious freedom 12:15 and Vatican II, I think put an end to that. 12:17 Well, I shouldn't say put an end to it. 12:19 There were social changes in those countries, 12:21 working against it but Vatican II confirmed that shift. 12:25 And so Roman Catholic Church could not only live with it, 12:29 they could proclaim as they do in the United States 12:31 full religious freedom for all people. 12:33 This would be my way of explaining, 12:35 kind of you know, in a short synopsis is that-- 12:38 you know, I shared that churches and state involve 12:40 so many different branches philosophy, religion, history, 12:43 constitutional law, political science. 12:45 I would say that at Vatican II 12:46 what the Catholic Church simply did through the document 12:49 "Dignitatis Humanae" is they took the shift 12:52 from more of the theological church historical position 12:56 and looked at it more from a philosophical 12:58 civil perspective, so it's not so much 13:00 that they are denying the previous history 13:01 'cause they were just shifting their focus. 13:03 No, they wouldn't accept it, you know. 13:04 Well, as you can tell, 13:06 we are in to some heavy stuff here. 13:07 And if you will stay with us 13:09 and then come back after the break, 13:11 we may even be handing out diplomas. 13:13 Stay with us for this discussion of Vatican II 13:16 and the implications for religious freedom. |
Revised 2014-12-17