Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is a program bringing you
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discussion, news, views
and up to date information
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on Religious Liberty
events around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Dr. Ed Cook.
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A good friend and
contributed to Liberty magazine
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for quite some years now.
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But you are new in one sense,
you are newly minted doctor.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Just graduated
from Baylor University
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with church-state
studies and new with you
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is your doctorate,
your doctoral thesis.
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Yeah, that's correct I worked--
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the title of it
is "Roman Catholic
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hit Germany and
religious freedom--
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In Germany, I mean, I
lived through the Cold War,
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I seem to remember that
word-- was it the Soviet Union
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or the United States or both?
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They were hegemons. Yes.
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And that the
term actually refers
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to that is the
aspect of territorialism,
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trying to maintain or
establish their territory.
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Their control. Correct.
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An element of over
lordship or control, isn't it?
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And in the-- my dissertation,
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which is now
becoming a book forthcoming in
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about a month it
will be published.
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But basically its dealing
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with the idea of
religious freedom
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and how the Catholic
church does advocate that today,
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but, you know, something that
I think all of us recognizes it,
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its not just any religious group
advocating religious freedom.
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It's how they define it
that is the important thing.
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Absolutely,
because before the program
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we were casting about,
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is there any religion
or state for that matter?
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But is anybody
against religious liberty.
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I don't know, of anyone
that's ever spoken against it.
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Well, I take that back, one
of the Popes, was it Pius...?
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The XII. The XII.
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He spoke about that pernicious,
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I think, wasn't it
pernicious concept?
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Yeah, correct, and of
separation of churches
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and state of freedom
of conscience in essence.
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And thereby hangs the
tail called Vatican II.
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Something big happened
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in the Roman Catholic
Church starting in 1962,
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and when did it end?
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1965. So was this a
three-year long church council?
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Only one of 21
by some numerations
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of the Christian
Church from its beginning,
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getting together to
decide major things,
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but, you know, I think
some of those are up for grabs,
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you know, why they
were called or what they--
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whether they
were a huge council.
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But importantly this is only
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the second one held
in the Vatican. Correct.
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And Vatican I being in roughly
1870's in that time 1871.
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Yeah, and it didn't
deal with such matters
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of big importance as I remember.
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Actually, in 1871 Vatican
I, actually one of the issues
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that they ended
up dealing with was
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the infallibility of their Pope.
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It's true. I tell
that is a big issue.
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And they did establish it,
yeah. Right, you've gotten that.
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But it was sort of
introspective. Correct.
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Yeah, it was more
within. That was I got it.
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It was an internal
doctrinal thing where--
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although it did
go to the reasons
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for the ecumenical council
because Vatican's I and II
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claimed to be
ecumenical council,
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Which is an
interesting claim because
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by the time we
get to the Vatican's,
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this is Catholicism, which
is not all of Christianity.
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And yet they call
an ecumenical council.
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In other words,
its determinations
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were to apply to
all of Christendom.
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Correct. Which
is not enforceable,
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but, yes the issue
of papal infallibility
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is very big for Protestants.
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And yet doesn't go back as
far as we imagine. Correct.
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Now, you know, I
think the assumption
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of the power of the papacy
was always along those lines
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but it wasn't
formally spelled out
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till that First
Vatican Council. Correct.
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And that was
something that at the time
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in Vatican Council I in 1871,
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being that the council dealt
with the issue in the years
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and in fact, I could say even
the centuries preceding that,
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there had been
a counter argument
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within the church
called conciliarism
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where basically, they
understood that the Pope
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did not have the complete
authority as infallible,
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but he had to be among
acolyte, peers in other words,
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other bishops and archbishops
and they in a council
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they would come to
decisions regarding the church.
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But in a Vatican Council I 1871,
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they ended up
making the decision
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and advocating the idea
of people and fallibility.
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I was listening to a BBC program
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a couple nights ago
on Vatican II actually.
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And they had a
Roman Catholic nun there,
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who said she was a
loyal Catholic and then
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there was a
conservative Catholic theologian
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on the program with her.
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So they got to debating
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what the
significance of Vatican II
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and she said she
was loyal to the church
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and she accepted Vatican II
and the authority of the church.
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And then at one point she said,
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but, you know--
the interviewer said
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but the Pope has said so and so.
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And she says, well, you know,
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I think the
Holy Father is wrong,
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and theologian
says, there we have it.
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Yeah.
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And see, that I think that
ultimately within Catholicism,
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one can recognize by
asking questions like that
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what's the final-- the
bottom root issue is that,
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you know, if they are certain,
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the tradition of the
church can be explained in study
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through the
writings of the fathers,
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the Nicene Fathers,
the Ante-Nicene Fathers,
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the tradition of
the church and councils
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that have been--
have met since that time--
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You dropped some
toes turfs there,
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Nicene Fathers, Ante-Nicene.
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You really need to
fledge that out for our viewers.
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The council of
Nicaea, historically--
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Denice, right. Yes, correct.
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Modern Denice, France.
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Yes, the Nicene Fathers
are those that are recognized
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as during that time period--
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writings of theologians
for us that are non-Catholics,
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we would look at it
maybe as commentary.
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But for Catholics, they
look at that as something
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that is authoritative in
the tradition of the church.
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So you have the
Ante-Nicene fathers
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which were those that
wrote prior to that time.
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They were looked on many times
as the Early Christian Fathers
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of the first
couple of centuries.
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And we're now getting to
a major theological holding
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in Roman Catholicism, I
think pre and post Vatican II.
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That yes, they hold
the Holy Scriptures,
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but certainly an equal authority
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is what the Church Fathers
held through the ages, right?
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Correct. So
there's a huge dependence,
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to use another
term on tradition--
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what the leaders
thought at different points
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becomes determinative.
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Yes. And you know, that's--
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I would say one of the
crux issues within Catholicism,
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in Chapter 2 of my book I
deal a little bit with this,
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is basically can
one as a Roman Catholic,
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if I were a Roman Catholic,
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could I say that
Vatican II represents
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the historical
tradition of the church,
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or the writings of the fathers
and cyclicals of the Popes,
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and the crux-- the
central one of the fact is
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I can't say that--the
most hardly debated document
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coming forth from Vatican
II was "Dignitatis Humanae"
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dealing with
religious freedom and--
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Now what is
"Dignitatis Humanae" mean?
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"Dignitatis Humanae"
is the Latin term meaning
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"the dignity of
the human person."
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Dignity of man.
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Yes, correct,
and so based on that
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the Catholic Church
argues that religious freedom
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needs to recognize the
dignity of the human person
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just as in "Humanae Vitae,"
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the church was
saying the human person,
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the human life is
something that's sacred.
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So they would
say that the dignity
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of the human person is what
should define religious freedom.
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And that's how they
developed this document
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that has about 17 different
main article with sections--
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That's an important document.
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And overall, I
think it's an admirable
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not a restatement for them
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but a
restatement for many people
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on the huge general
principle of religious liberty.
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Was it easily
adopted? No, it was not.
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There was a lot of
debate it went through.
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Actually, eight
different drafts leading up
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to the final one that was voted.
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When it was voted
they had more than
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2,000 of the bishops
that actually voted it,
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and they were only like
around 72 that were against it.
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When it settled,
but as I remember
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it was nip and tuck
for years even. Correct.
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And once-- better
remember my history.
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Was it that the--
some leading figure,
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was it even the
Pope when they tilted
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that they might
accept, then suddenly
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the works on fell in the
line, but until the last--
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That was John
XXIII, the Pope that--
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Most of the preliminary votes
were at best equally divided.
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Correct. End result is a
little misleading I think,
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but it was at the end
voted overwhelmingly in favor.
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Correct. And
that's why I mentioned
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that there were eight
different drafts of it,
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as it went through those drafts,
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there was debate
across the spectrum
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and groups were
divided against--
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where the bishops were
divided against one another.
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And the final end
product is that when John XXIII
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stepped in and gave
moral support for it,
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then you found the
bishops going ahead
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and lining up and more
than 2,000 voting to support it.
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Yeah, I can't
remember if it was him
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personally or one of the curia,
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but I know that
there was huge signal
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from the leadership and then
the vote suddenly polarized.
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Yeah.
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And you've most
recently studied this,
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but it seems to me
that an American prelate
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I think it was--
Jesuit John Courtney Murray.
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Yes, he was central to this--
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He actually had drafted
the main document. Correct.
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And John Courtney Murray
Jesuit theologian in America,
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Woodstock College is
founded through his influence.
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But back in the 50's,
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he was involved in actually
defending the Catholic position,
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traditional Catholic
position which basically argues
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that the Catholic Church as
the true faith has the right
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to be the established
religion in the state,
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and other groups can
be granted toleration,
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if it is
something that basically
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is in harmony
with a common good.
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In other words, if
there's more benefit
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by granting them toleration
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do so to
maintain societal peace.
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Now Courtney
Murray had maintained
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that position
through the early 50's,
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as he started
studying more about the topic
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from an American
perspective and the influence
00:10:21.49\00:10:23.82
of the founding
fathers, the first amendment.
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He started developing some ideas
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and looking into the tradition
of the Catholic Church,
00:10:27.60\00:10:29.93
their historical
tradition to find out
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if there was
something that would harmonize
00:10:31.98\00:10:33.89
with what he believed
00:10:33.92\00:10:35.34
was more of an American position
on the freedom of religion.
00:10:35.37\00:10:38.60
So it's not illegitimate,
is it to then describe
00:10:38.63\00:10:41.99
Vatican II as far
as religious liberty
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is really being a by-product
00:10:44.11\00:10:46.32
of American views
on religious liberty
00:10:46.35\00:10:48.32
making their way in to the--
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I would say to some extent
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but there again one
needs to be cautious
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because for
example, the founding fathers
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like Jefferson who
influenced medicine
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in the writing of
the first amendment.
00:10:59.46\00:11:01.14
You have an
enlightenment philosophy
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that under girded the law.
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Oh, no, it's with them. Yeah.
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But Vatican II was sort
of synthesizing that existing
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American concept of
what personal freedom was
00:11:09.80\00:11:13.29
that's when it was picked
up by a Catholic understanding.
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No, I don't think
they-- in fact, they probably
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run a mile if they thought
it was a secular backdrop.
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But I wouldn't say that
there is a lot of confusion
00:11:23.85\00:11:27.77
in this area of church
and state here in America,
00:11:27.80\00:11:29.68
among not only
constitutional scholars
00:11:29.71\00:11:32.49
but others that study the field.
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And they tend to
equate the document
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"Dignitatis Humanae"
for the catholic position
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as basically being exactly
a harmony hand in glove fit
00:11:39.95\00:11:44.50
with the founding fathers
concept of religious freedom
00:11:44.53\00:11:47.20
as annunciated in
the first amendment.
00:11:47.23\00:11:49.93
There's some parallels
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but there's some very distinct
foundational differences.
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Absolutely, and that's really
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what I want to
bring out in this program.
00:11:55.00\00:11:57.83
You're thinking exactly like me.
00:11:57.86\00:11:59.23
We need to-- it
was a positive move
00:11:59.26\00:12:01.81
as far as Roman Catholicism
because in many countries,
00:12:01.84\00:12:05.11
you know, they
never had the whip hand
00:12:05.14\00:12:06.51
in the United
States, but in Latin America
00:12:06.54\00:12:08.65
they were actively inciting
the states to persecute people
00:12:08.68\00:12:13.40
who differed from
the religious freedom
00:12:13.43\00:12:15.12
and Vatican II, I
think put an end to that.
00:12:15.15\00:12:17.68
Well, I shouldn't
say put an end to it.
00:12:17.71\00:12:19.42
There were social
changes in those countries,
00:12:19.45\00:12:21.70
working against it but
Vatican II confirmed that shift.
00:12:21.73\00:12:25.59
And so Roman Catholic Church
could not only live with it,
00:12:25.62\00:12:28.98
they could proclaim as
they do in the United States
00:12:29.01\00:12:31.39
full religious
freedom for all people.
00:12:31.42\00:12:33.34
This would be my
way of explaining,
00:12:33.37\00:12:35.22
kind of you know, in a
short synopsis is that--
00:12:35.25\00:12:38.66
you know, I shared that
churches and state involve
00:12:38.69\00:12:40.77
so many different branches
philosophy, religion, history,
00:12:40.80\00:12:43.27
constitutional
law, political science.
00:12:43.30\00:12:45.56
I would say that at Vatican II
00:12:45.59\00:12:46.96
what the Catholic Church
simply did through the document
00:12:46.99\00:12:49.38
"Dignitatis Humanae"
is they took the shift
00:12:49.41\00:12:51.99
from more of the theological
church historical position
00:12:52.02\00:12:56.20
and looked at it
more from a philosophical
00:12:56.23\00:12:58.19
civil perspective,
so it's not so much
00:12:58.22\00:13:00.25
that they are
denying the previous history
00:13:00.28\00:13:01.81
'cause they were
just shifting their focus.
00:13:01.84\00:13:03.21
No, they wouldn't
accept it, you know.
00:13:03.24\00:13:04.61
Well, as you can tell,
00:13:04.64\00:13:06.01
we are in to
some heavy stuff here.
00:13:06.04\00:13:07.44
And if you will stay with us
00:13:07.47\00:13:09.41
and then come
back after the break,
00:13:09.44\00:13:11.51
we may even be
handing out diplomas.
00:13:11.54\00:13:13.94
Stay with us for this
discussion of Vatican II
00:13:13.97\00:13:16.18
and the implications
for religious freedom.
00:13:16.21\00:13:18.32