Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Ed Cook
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000193B
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00:06 Welcome back to "The Liberty Insider."
00:09 Before the break with guest Dr. Ed Cook, 00:12 we were talking about his studies 00:14 at Baylor University in Church-State studies 00:17 and I'm going to ask the question again, because 00:21 I don't think our viewers all really understand it. 00:23 Church-state studies, what does that really involve? 00:27 It's not just religious liberty, is it? 00:29 No, it's a-- much broader than that. 00:32 And, you know, what I should say, 00:34 before I actually I went to Baylor 00:35 I had taken several years 00:37 and I tribute to Liberty Magazine 00:39 and your work there to help give me a good foundation 00:42 at religious liberty lines before I went to Baylor. 00:44 So I had a good foundation, but when I was there at Baylor 00:47 I actually had the chance to amplify my studies. 00:50 For example, there was one class I took 00:52 that was US constitutional law, the history of it. 00:55 And so basically all of the cases 00:56 dealing with religious freedom issues 00:58 from the 1880s to the present time, 01:00 we went through and studied that, 01:01 and looked at the dynamic 01:03 between this establishment clause 01:04 and the free exercise clause. 01:06 Another class that I took was one dealing with-- 01:09 more religious and historical classes 01:13 going back to the time of the protestant reformation, 01:15 a class on Catholicism, 01:17 another class on modern Catholicism 01:19 and Thomism in the 20th century and its influence. 01:22 Thomism? What is that really? 01:23 I don't think many of our viewers would know that. 01:25 Yeah. The Thomism is in Catholic parlance 01:28 is the term they used in referring to Thomas Aquinas. 01:31 And so basically a lot of his metaphysical concepts 01:33 and how he understood the-- 01:36 what we would call the transcendental dimension, 01:38 or the realm of God and how it relates 01:40 to the temporal sphere on the earth. 01:43 And, you know, a lot of his "Summa Theologica", 01:45 what he wrote in Latin, dealing with how he rationalize 01:49 from a Biblical perspective 01:50 and combined with political thought 01:52 from Aristotle and therefore produced 01:55 what the Catholic understands as its political philosophy. 01:59 So much of what you do we could have 02:01 extended discussion of but I can't let that go by. 02:04 Do you think from your studies, 02:06 and of course you're studying Baptist now with Catholics, 02:09 but do you think the Catholic understand so much 02:12 of their philosophical backdrop is from Aristotle and Plato 02:18 and so on rather than Biblical advices-- 02:22 You know, I think that the way that Aquinas 02:25 was able to synthesis the political philosophy 02:28 of these other Greek-- 02:30 And is exactly what I think has happened. 02:31 It's a synthesis. Yes and-- 02:32 And amalgamation of Christian, 02:36 Jewish tradition and some of these, 02:40 you can even use the extreme word, 02:41 pagan, pagan view points. 02:43 Yes, he was able to synthesis all of that in such a way that-- 02:48 you know, the people today for example Catholics 02:50 as well as non-Catholics, they pick up the books 02:52 and his series of volumes actually 02:54 that he wrote, "Summa Theologica." 02:56 They will go through and they will read that 02:58 and there's a high degree of rationality it, 03:01 a logic, that he uses. 03:03 And so one reads it on its surface value and says, 03:06 you know, it seems like it irrefutable logic 03:08 the concludes and succumbs to, 03:09 but if one will take the time to compare 03:11 that closely to Biblical passages 03:14 and Biblical principles there is areas of overlap, 03:17 but there is also areas of divergence. 03:18 Yeah, not everything that Plato and Aristotle 03:22 said was wrong by any means, 03:24 but they had a philosophical overlay that went with it 03:28 to determine their line of logical enquiry 03:30 and I've knew this one I was in college. 03:34 It--a lot of that was picked up 03:36 by what became Roman Catholicism 03:39 but these divergent views within Christianity 03:42 and really that's my view-- that's my point. 03:45 But that's a bigger discussion and, you know, we're gonna-- 03:49 I'm sure in several programs, 03:51 'cause I plan on having you back again, 03:53 we're gonna get on to analyzing 03:55 some of the Roman Catholic doctrine, 03:57 because we're picking on Roman Catholicism, 03:59 but for better or worse it's the mainstream 04:03 that came down through the ages representing Christianity. 04:06 I don't think necessarily the claims 04:08 to authority there always what they given us. 04:14 But there's no question that it's been 04:15 the dominant tread of Christian behavior through the ages. 04:18 Let me share this comment, Lincoln, 04:19 that I think is highly essential. 04:22 Whenever-- not only us or any person 04:25 that wants to study and dialog about church-state issues 04:29 it is highly important that one would recognize and state, 04:32 "Okay, we're not an anti whatever religion perspective 04:36 just because we're going to talk 04:37 about a particular faith tradition 04:39 and their understanding of Church and State." 04:41 And for example, there is often times 04:43 I'm on the internet just doing searching 04:45 and staying abreast of the field 04:47 and I'll find people that they say, 04:48 well, you know, just because you're making comments 04:51 about Islam for example they say, 04:53 you are anti-Islamic, 04:54 or anti-Semitic, or anti-Catholic. 04:56 And I said, no. 04:57 Just because we're asking questions to investigate-- 04:59 Or even disagreeing. Yes-- 05:01 We should have the-- this is what some people 05:03 don't understand on religious liberty. 05:04 They've confused religious liberty 05:07 with basically either ecumenism which is a common term 05:11 or a negative way of saying that syncretism. 05:15 The true religious liberty is that I grant you 05:18 the right to believe something 05:19 that I hold to be patently wrong or even puerile. 05:26 But I will defend-- Irrevocably. 05:27 Yes. I will defend your right to hold that view 05:29 or no view at all if necessary because we're all 05:34 free moral agents to choose or reject God. Correct. 05:37 So on that basis, but I don't see 05:40 that I'm under obligation, in fact it would be morally 05:43 or mentally dishonest to have a simpering-- 05:47 a simpering acceptance of something that of inside, 05:53 I think so, but I'm not gonna tell you that. Sure. 05:56 So--and particularly on the Roman Catholic church 06:00 with Liberty Magazine we have articles 06:02 on their believes now and then, 06:04 because we're trying to discredit their beliefs, 06:07 but so many of the things that the each catholic church holds, 06:10 bear on church-state issues and it in the very root-- 06:15 and I'll repeat it again, and-- 06:16 and it's maybe most negatives for, 06:19 I think Roman Catholicism as it's evolved 06:22 over the years has inherently-- not in practice, 06:26 because now they speak very well of religious liberty, 06:28 but structurally is a mortal threat 06:33 to religious liberty in the United States 06:35 under the model of separation of church and state, 06:37 because here is a church that is a church on one side 06:41 and is a state on the other. 06:43 Yeah, and so, you know, that some-- 06:45 It is the church-state union in itself not just uniting 06:49 with some government entity. 06:50 Its Vatican State with the ambassadors and so on. 06:53 It functions in the United Nations. 06:56 No other church is in the United Nation. 06:58 It's there as a state. 07:00 And, you know, they have what they have. 07:02 You know, I can't hold that 07:03 against an individual Roman Catholic, 07:05 but we need to understand when we're talking 07:07 about church-state issues the structurally 07:08 we have a very different animal here. 07:10 Yeah, and I think that that is something that, 07:13 you know, as I mentioned earlier one needs 07:16 to understand the philosophical foundations of-- 07:20 for example in this case Roman Catholicism 07:22 as well as other religions, Islam included. 07:25 For the sake saying when we get 07:27 onto the table of church-state relations 07:29 and dialoging about it we need to understand 07:32 the perspective of each group 07:34 for the sake of being able to say, 07:35 okay, is this actually establishing religious freedom 07:39 as the right for the individual 07:41 to have the freedom from coercion, 07:43 the freedom to go ahead and seek 07:45 and pursue truth and finding it to embrace it. 07:48 And so when one understands that religious freedom 07:50 from that perspective one needs to say okay, 07:53 what is this group and this group 07:54 and the other group, what do they hold on the view 07:56 to find out does it harmonize with that or not. 07:58 It's true. And religious freedom is a nice term. 08:02 It's like motherhood, nobody is against motherhood. 08:04 And I've never come across a group or a country 08:08 that's against religious freedom. 08:09 I've been to some that deny religious practice 08:13 like the communist-- philosophically. Who was it? 08:18 Was a Karl Marx that said religion 08:20 is the opium of the people. Yeah, exactly. 08:22 So philosophically there was a deep divide. 08:24 But you would go to a communist country 08:26 and they would actually have included in a charter 08:29 or the constitutional guarantees for the freedom of religion. 08:33 But was within extremely sharp restraints, narrow restraints. 08:38 So price of the state they didn't believe in-- 08:39 Based on that-- coming back to the point, 08:42 it's not so much the idea of saying 08:44 does a group advocate for religious freedom, 08:46 it's the question how to they define it. 08:47 It's their philosophical model. Absolutely. Absolutely. 08:49 And with my slow way of building. 08:51 And so based on that one has to say, 08:53 we've got to open these groups up for investigation, 08:56 for dialog, looking at their position 08:59 as well as other positions, 09:00 and how to all of these groups come together at the table. 09:03 And so in understanding that philosophical view point 09:07 that a group brings I think history 09:10 through the ages is-- very much informs us. 09:14 Now with the Roman Catholic Church-- 09:16 and we'll have another program on this, 09:18 that's at least my plan, 09:19 Vatican too changed a lot of things. Yes. 09:22 But in describing that church I still think 09:25 we need to go back further and bring you know-- 09:27 That-- look at the larger picture. 09:28 We kind of know everything before the 1960s 09:31 when the Vatican 2 was brought forth. 09:33 In fact-- and just a brief comment 09:34 I'll make on that, there are-- 09:36 there's at least one or even two Jesuit scholars 09:40 that they argue that point and they said, 09:41 when we look at Vatican 2 and how pivotal that was 09:44 we've got to recognize that it's not isolated 09:47 into its own time frame of 3 years from 1962 to 1965, 09:51 it's actually something that is a long history 09:54 that ties up and relates to that time period. 09:57 I think a few weeks ago 09:58 and I think I told you this in private conversation, 10:00 I was at a meeting 10:01 at the Catholic University of Washington 10:04 and it was on religious liberty 10:06 mostly talking to Roman Catholics, 10:08 but I was lucky enough to have been invited. 10:10 And Cardinal Dolan, Archbishop of New York, 10:14 and the head of the Catholic Bishops 10:16 of United States gave a very good speech. 10:18 And in his speech he said, 10:21 Vatican 2 has changed our views on religious liberty. 10:23 He said, in previous ages we always held, 10:26 he said, that era has no rights. 10:29 And that was a very honest recognition 10:31 of where they once were. 10:33 And, you know, thankfully they've moved 10:35 with the times and we hope that they continue 10:37 to move the right direction. 10:39 They may not but we'll see on that. 10:41 But when you talk religious liberty 10:44 it has to be everybody has the unencumbered right 10:47 to believe and disbelieve as they want 10:50 and to speak as they want about other faiths. 10:52 Correct. And, you know, 10:54 looking at that I guess one would say, 10:55 you're kind of encapsulating a bit of Vatican 2 11:00 and as you mention what Archbishop Dolan, 11:03 even within the Catholic church today 11:05 there is still debate on the issue. 11:07 You know, there is division, in other words, among Catholics. 11:09 I picked that up. 11:10 Even though they've made a clear shift 11:12 as a church entity the argument's not settled. 11:15 That's a correct statement regarding modern Catholicism 11:18 and the division that exist there. 11:20 You've got two groups one that are progressives 11:22 and then those that are traditionalist. 11:24 Traditionalist catholic still believe that Catholicism 11:27 should be the established religion of the state 11:30 basically establishing a confessional state. 11:34 Progressive Catholics believe that one needs to recognize 11:36 democracy that exists in the world 11:38 and therefore advocate for religious pluralism, 11:41 so people can investigate the truth, 11:43 finding it, embracing it, and following it. 11:46 And among these two groups 11:47 that's the current position of Catholicism today. 11:52 It's been my experience over the years, 11:54 well before I ever became editor of Liberty Magazine 11:57 or did this program that religious liberty 11:59 is something that no one is against 12:02 and everyone speaks well off. 12:04 The problem is, how do you execute it? 12:07 What do you mean by religious liberty? 12:09 For the communist religious liberty meant 12:12 constricting you to the confines of a church 12:15 for one hour a week and beyond that you say 12:18 nothing to your children on to the community. 12:20 For others religious liberty is my church 12:23 should do what it wants, 12:24 but other religions should be restricted. 12:26 Even within my church, 12:28 the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 12:30 I find that too many leaders, pastors, 12:35 while they think well of it, do not understand it. 12:37 And I think it's admirable of our guest on this program 12:41 and others that they actually study through 12:43 what religious liberty is 12:45 to have an informed understanding 12:47 of the separation of church and state. 12:49 How individual moral autonomy is worked out. 12:52 How we have respect for other believes 12:55 even as we hold deeply ourselves that we know the truth 12:59 and we're going to live that out in our lives, 13:01 but our prepared to if necessary die to defend 13:05 someone else's right to believe what we find prurient. 13:08 Religious liberty, it's not just a term, 13:11 it's not something generic, it's something particular 13:14 that we need to study and adhere to. 13:18 For "Liberty Insider" this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17